Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 01-16-2006, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Certainly the idea that the Zodiac feartured in Jewish symbolism was around in Josephus time.

JOSEPHUS' WRITINGS - BOOK 3, CH. 7

The Babylonian zodiac was even earlier than the Greek.

Chris Weimer · 01-16-2006, 09:58 PM

There's been at least three threads in the past two days where someone had made the claim that Jesus is a composite god made up different gods from surrounding religions, yet none have given any evidence. So my question: where's the evidence?

Peter Kirby · 01-16-2006, 10:18 PM

But Chris, where's the evidence for Jesus!?

I just thought I'd point out ahead of time that it's no good trying to put a burden of proof onto Chris for asking his question.

kind regards,
Peter Kirby

Toto · 01-16-2006, 10:22 PM

I didn't see the point of a separate thread, especially when the other two threads were not identified.

Chris Weimer · 01-16-2006, 10:27 PM

I suppose Toto. This thread is going to bring in a lot of unnecessary nitpicks though. I was looking for something solid, not merely assertions as this thread has already done. Twice.

Toto · 01-16-2006, 10:58 PM

The evidence that Jesus was a composite god is entirely circumstantial, if there is evidence. It is a conclusion that people have drawn at various points after noticing similarities. I don't know what kind of evidence you are expecting.

Chris Weimer · 01-16-2006, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The evidence that Jesus was a composite god is entirely circumstantial, if there is evidence. It is a conclusion that people have drawn at various points after noticing similarities. I don't know what kind of evidence you are expecting.

The conclusions have to be drawn from somewhere, no? I'm looking for something along the lines of: a) evidence against an historical Jesus, b) positive evidence of parallels between Jesus and other gods, and c) why these parallels denote borrowing and not merely coincidence, or literary embellishments.

It's far too vague and not particularly useful saying that Jesus is a composite god of different Mediterranean gods and thus never existed if they don't have any evidence at all to back this claim.

Malachi151 · 01-17-2006, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

The conclusions have to be drawn from somewhere, no? I'm looking for something along the lines of: a) evidence against an historical Jesus, b) positive evidence of parallels between Jesus and other gods, and c) why these parallels denote borrowing and not merely coincidence, or literary embellishments.

It's far too vague and not particularly useful saying that Jesus is a composite god of different Mediterranean gods and thus never existed if they don't have any evidence at all to back this claim.

Evidence AGAINST a historical Jesus is like evidence against the existance of God.

What we have is NO EVIDENCE FOR a historical Jesus, and a full set of evidence that gives a plausible explanation for the development of a mythical Jesus.

That's probably the best we will ever get, because again unelss we find a document from the early Christian saying "yes we are making up the story of Jesus" then there will probably never be any "evidence" that a person who didn't exist, didn't exist.

Malachi151 · 01-17-2006, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Certainly the idea that the Zodiac feartured in Jewish symbolism was around in Josephus time.

JOSEPHUS' WRITINGS - BOOK 3, CH. 7

Exactly, and this is the point. You have to understand myth making. When you see references in religious texts that correspond to "special" concepts these have to be viewed in the context of the ideas that were seen as part of the religious psyche at the time.

There are references to Jesus surrounded by the Zodiac, as well as other gods surrounded by the Zodiac.

12 was seen as a special magic number in those times. That there would be 12 apostiles in the story is a good indication that the story is a myth because there are reasons why a myth writer would choose the number 12.

Now you can't go on single references like that alone, but its one one thing, its the weight of many different things together.

Clivedurdle · 01-17-2006, 05:01 AM

And like Darwin teasing out evolution, we get repeating patterns in different times and places that maybe makes circumstantial evidence stronger than it feels.

http://www.britannia.com/church/waltham.html

Quote:

During the reign of King Canute (also Cnut), between 1017 and 1035, a remarkable discovery was made in Somerset. A man dreamed that on a hilltop at Montacute, about 15 miles south of Glastonbury, a treasure would be found. Excavations were made there, and a large flint cross was dug up. The story is that it was placed on a cart drawn by twelve red and twelve white oxen, the intention being to take the cross to Glastonbury Abbey, but the oxen refused to go in that direction. Instead they made their own way across country until they came to Waltham, where they stopped by the church. Waltham, therefore, became the shrine of the cross, known as the Holy Rood. In 1060 Harold consecrated a large new church in its honor, and miraculous cures and visions took place around it.

And denial of the connections!

Quote:

Contributions were made by other leading Victorian artists. One of the first things one notices is the painted ceiling, executed to Burges's design in 1860 by Edward Poynter, who was later president of the Royal Academy. The paintings, done on canvas, show the four elements and the twelve signs of the zodiac, together with the activities, such as plowing and weaving, appropriate to each of the signs. A notice by the entrance states emphatically that these images have nothing to do with occultism or any such non-Christian practice.

01-16-2006, 09:58 PM	#32
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Where's the evidence? There's been at least three threads in the past two days where someone had made the claim that Jesus is a composite god made up different gods from surrounding religions, yet none have given any evidence. So my question: where's the evidence?

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01-16-2006, 10:18 PM	#33
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	But Chris, where's the evidence for Jesus!? I just thought I'd point out ahead of time that it's no good trying to put a burden of proof onto Chris for asking his question. kind regards, Peter Kirby

01-16-2006, 10:22 PM	#34
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I didn't see the point of a separate thread, especially when the other two threads were not identified.

01-16-2006, 10:27 PM	#35
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	I suppose Toto. This thread is going to bring in a lot of unnecessary nitpicks though. I was looking for something solid, not merely assertions as this thread has already done. Twice.

01-16-2006, 10:58 PM	#36
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The evidence that Jesus was a composite god is entirely circumstantial, if there is evidence. It is a conclusion that people have drawn at various points after noticing similarities. I don't know what kind of evidence you are expecting.

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