B.S. Lewis

Something that has always baffled me is the fact that the prophecies cited by the gospel writers as being fulfilled by the gospel stories are typically really weak; and yet, some very impressive ones actually do exist. I can think of four off the top of my head:

(1) Zechariah 11:12-13. This is an extremely detailed prophecy about Judas' actions in the gospels. Josh McDowell points out 7 or 8 specific things in these two verses that correlate with what Judas is said to have done in the gospels. If you're familiar with the gospels, I'm sure that even without the aid of McDowell's list you can readily see that the specificity of these verses are well beyond chance. Now, whytf did it take Josh McDowell to point out this prophecy to me? The NT writers should have been flaunting this prophecy left and right! And although I don't know for sure, I doubt the answer is as simple as saying that the verses were inserted by Christian scribes at some time after the NT writers had died. This passage is in the Hebrew bible, is it not? And even if the NT writers themselves never saw these verses - why haven't they become a more significant part of church tradition? I grew up in a fundy church and I never heard about these verses from anyone until McDowell.

(2) Psalm 22. (As far as I can remember, no NT writer ever quotes from it, except to make Jesus' last words a reference to the first line of it. But nothing so explicit that gentile converts could be expected to get the point).

(3) The Genesis 22 story of Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac has all kinds of parallels to the Jesus crucifixion/resurrection/atonement story. I don't feel like cataloging them all, but I can point some out if anyone fails to see them on his own.

(4) This fourth one will require that someone humors me: Who are the two most famous non-Jewish heroes of the OT? (Pre-Jewish people like Adam and Noah don't count). Someone please respond, because this is a good one.

I apologize if this is retreading old stuff.

Garnet

4) Rahab and Ruth?

Anat

Jethro? Yael? Cyrus? Job?

Zeichman

Balaam?

B.S. Lewis

Those are the two I was thinking of.

And they are both, according to Matthew's geneology, Jesus' ancestors. That's not just a single fulfilled prophecy; it seems to give Jesus-centric meaning to the whole scope of Hebrew history. Two women, in particular, are specially brought into Israel from outside. In both cases they marry into the line of David, which becomes the line of Jesus. I have to wonder how Jews who didn't acknowledge Jesus would have even explained the fact that there are these two non-Jewish people as major figures in their bible.

To me this is the most impressive messianic prophecy because, although it is obviously still true that NT writers could have intentionally fulfilled it, for once it is NOT true that Christians could have inserted the prophecy into the OT after the fact. It's not just a single verse or verses, but the whole narrative structure of the OT, that consitutes this prediction.

Anyway, now I'd be really interested to hear your responses to my original question with regard to this and to the other three listed before.


P.S. - thanks for playing along, I appreciate it.

Chris Weimer

No, but there are allusions. Just because they don't quote it doesn't mean they didn't use it.

Both Paul and James touch upon this subject.

Esther?

Anyway, Ruth and Rahab (which Matthew oddly uses "Rachab") are featured in Matthew's gospel and not for no reason. I comment on the subject here.

Garnet

B.S. Lewis...you are welcome. I never, ever, claim to be a Biblical scholar. Quite the contrary, I consider myself to be a novice. I've read the Bible a few times. I've read some articles and and lurk like a fiend in this forum. But when you asked the question....

Ruth and Rahab popped immediately to mind. I'm unaware of any other people in the OT whose "non-Jewishness" (ok...bad wording...help?) was so profound in the text.

Anyway, y'all scholars carry on. I likely won't post again, but I'll be watching with interest.

Anat

In Jewish tradition Rahab is supposed to be an ancestress of Jeremiah, which means she or an offspring of hers managed to marry into a low ranking priestly line.

B.S. Lewis

I kind of answered my own question here, didn't I...

Non-messianic jews don't believe in Jesus but they certainly find the line of David to be significant.

Still, there are three other examples I gave. What about the Zechariah one? It's the most specific OT prophecy as far as I can see, and the NT evangelists don't trot it out once.

Esther's not Jewish? That's news to me. But, again, if this one going to be contentious, then let's just focus on the other three examples I gave; because "who is the most significant OT non-jew" is definitely not the main question I was interested in.

Sure, they make references in their letters to believers. But why in Acts don't we see Peter constantly bringing it out as an apologetic tool - the way Josh McDowell does? Seems like it would have worked pretty well on a Jewish crowd.

Chris Weimer

You're correct. My mistake.

Rationalization after the fact?