Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 12-27-2009, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

In the time and place, wealth was expressed as land, big house, slaves, animals, concubines, colorful clothes, perfumes, and fine food.

....and as being in a position of philosophical power over others. No-one created new cults except the educated wealthy in those times, unless Jesus was the sole exception. You had to be educated as a minimum, which required a certain family financial status.

The idea that some poor uneducated sheep herder started Christianity is just silly.

That seems most likely to me. I can't imagine a group of fishermen laying down their nets to follow a poor uneducated Jew. Jesus it seems would have had some notority as a person educated in Jewish religion who spoke as an authority figure. "Follow me and I'll make you fishers of men". Recruiting men for a new sect within Judaism would have required a monetary backing, probably his family wealth. (thinking of Ben Ladin in this regard)

Jesus goes to Egypt as a child with his family. He returns to Jerusalem with them and at 12 years old is able to debate with scholarly men about the Jewish scriptures. The would be disciples would have heard about this Jesus long before Jesus invited them to join his brand new band.

storytime · 12-27-2009, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

....and as being in a position of philosophical power over others. No-one created new cults except the educated wealthy in those times, unless Jesus was the sole exception. You had to be educated as a minimum, which required a certain family financial status.

The idea that some poor uneducated sheep herder started Christianity is just silly.

I figure that being wealthy would certainly help, but I don't see evidence in the earliest sources or in the best historiographical reconstructions that either Jesus or his family was wealthy. Nazareth was not a wealthy town, and woodworking was not a wealthy career. Jesus openly condemned the rich as being excluded from the kingdom of heaven, and he ordered rich men to give everything they have to the poor. Wealthy pastors today are forced to make ad hoc clarifications for those verses, but it is very likely that Jesus meant what he said. This would mean that Jesus was an exception to the rule, if what you say about historical patterns of cults are true, but I think it is most concurrent with the evidence.

He didn't exclude the rich but said it was more difficult for them to enter into the kingdom of heaven due to their unwillingness to share their wealth. Jesus seemed to reference OT rules of Jews being their brothers keepers.

Minimalist · 12-27-2009, 08:53 AM

A fictional character can be anything that anyone wants it to be.

That's why jesus is so malleable.

ApostateAbe · 12-27-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I figure that being wealthy would certainly help, but I don't see evidence in the earliest sources or in the best historiographical reconstructions that either Jesus or his family was wealthy. Nazareth was not a wealthy town, and woodworking was not a wealthy career. Jesus openly condemned the rich as being excluded from the kingdom of heaven, and he ordered rich men to give everything they have to the poor. Wealthy pastors today are forced to make ad hoc clarifications for those verses, but it is very likely that Jesus meant what he said. This would mean that Jesus was an exception to the rule, if what you say about historical patterns of cults are true, but I think it is most concurrent with the evidence.

He didn't exclude the rich but said it was more difficult for them to enter into the kingdom of heaven due to their unwillingness to share their wealth. Jesus seemed to reference OT rules of Jews being their brothers keepers.

I don't know about those OT rules of Jews being their brothers' keepers. The statements of Jesus seem, at the very least, extremely prejudiced against the rich. He didn't ask the rich to give some of their things to the poor. He asked the rich to give everything they have to the poor, so they would no longer be rich! And he didn't say that it is very difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. He effectively meant that it is impossible, because there was no Camel Blender and Syringe Kit back in that time.

Chili · 12-27-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

[He didn't exclude the rich but said it was more difficult for them to enter into the kingdom of heaven due to their unwillingness to share their wealth. Jesus seemed to reference OT rules of Jews being their brothers keepers.

There is no need to share your wealth as in give it away but it we cannot be imprisoned by it and this includes getting tax receipts for the donations that we make.

Zenaphobe · 12-27-2009, 12:22 PM

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James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Quote:

Luke 6:20-21
20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.

I bet these verses gets preached on Sunday after Sunday by preachers in Armini suits who sport diamond rings.

Maybe Jesus meant to say,

"Blessed are you who are rich,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who are stuffed now,
for you will get seconds.
Blessed are you who laugh now,
for you will dive a Lexus through the projects." :constern01:

Sheshbazzar · 12-27-2009, 12:42 PM

There is more horseshit preached from Christian pulpits every Sunday, than was ever shoveled from all of Solomon's forty thousand horse stalls.

Sheqer ha'sus l'-teshua.

jab · 12-27-2009, 12:51 PM

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Anderson says Jesus couldn't have been poor because he received lucrative gifts -- gold, frankincense and myrrh -- at birth.

Well, to be fair, I always wondered as a child what happened to those gifts of gold, frankenscense, and myrrh. My fundamentalist parents never answered that questions satisfactorily. This is another example of the narrative clumsiness of the Bible. Perhaps, though, the baby gifts were mostly all used up funding the flight to Egypt.

Zenaphobe · 12-27-2009, 04:38 PM

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Originally Posted by jab

Quote:

Anderson says Jesus couldn't have been poor because he received lucrative gifts -- gold, frankincense and myrrh -- at birth.

Well, to be fair, I always wondered as a child what happened to those gifts of gold, frankenscense, and myrrh. My fundamentalist parents never answered that questions satisfactorily. This is another example of the narrative clumsiness of the Bible. Perhaps, though, the baby gifts were mostly all used up funding the flight to Egypt.

Braces. Those things were mad expensive back then.

You can't have a Messiah kid running around with crooked teeth.

spamandham · 12-28-2009, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I figure that being wealthy would certainly help, but I don't see evidence in the earliest sources or in the best historiographical reconstructions that either Jesus or his family was wealthy.

But neither is there any evidence he was poor, or even Jewish, or that he lived in the 1st century. The gospels are stories, not histories.

If there was a historical Jesus somewhere in the pre-Christian era, there is no trace of him in the gospels.

Quote:

Wealthy pastors today are forced to make ad hoc clarifications for those verses, but it is very likely that Jesus meant what he said. This would mean that Jesus was an exception to the rule, if what you say about historical patterns of cults are true, but I think it is most concurrent with the evidence.

In my judgment, no historical Jesus ever said any of those things, or for that matter any other quotes attributed to him in the gospels.

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12-27-2009, 08:53 AM	#13
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	A fictional character can be anything that anyone wants it to be. That's why jesus is so malleable.

12-27-2009, 12:42 PM	#17
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	There is more horseshit preached from Christian pulpits every Sunday, than was ever shoveled from all of Solomon's forty thousand horse stalls. Sheqer ha'sus l'-teshua.

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