Malachi151

The Apocalypse of John seems so different to me from Christian writings, and so similar to other Jewish ones, that I have to wonder if in fact it were not written before the Gospels.

What are the possibilities for this? We know that some of the Jewish apocalyptic writings were later redacted and interpolated by Christians, perhaps this was an early Jewish apocalyptic writing that later received a few updates by Christians.

Are there arguments against this?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html

Why not also consider that ti was written before the earthquake?

gstafleu

There was a thread about this, more or less, a while ago: Is Revelations a Christian work? There I was wondering to what extent it can even be described as Christian. Are the main themes typically Christian or more in the line of Jewish thought? The thread didn't come to a firm conclusion (now there's a surprise ), Ben had some good arguments for Christian influence. But I think the conclusion that it is at least early Jewish-Christian is reasonable, and as such it could easily be before the gospels. Did you find anything in it that looks like a pointer to a gospel scene?

Gerard Stafleu

Clivedurdle

If you assume Hebrews is written by Paul, that immediately dates it before the gospels. If not by Paul, why should Hebrews also not be before the gospels? I thought Revelation was assumed by main stream people to be early as well.

Did not Torrey argue Revelation was originally written in Aramaic?

Nero's reign has been put forward as a possible date, so it might be very early.

TonyN

If you go here to my web site on Dating Revelation: http://www.saviour-of-all.org/DatingRevelation.html

you will see what I believe to be very good evidence for a later date.

Every blessing,

Tony

Limbo

I stumbled across an interesting theory about The Book of Revelation. Have a look at this:

The Mystery of the Apocalypse
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta46.htm

Malachi151

Relying on the word of early Christian apologists seems problematic at best. I wouldn't base any argument for date on what those people said. All we can know is that it had to have existed by the time that they wrote about it, but I wouldn't trust anything that they wrote about it.

Koyaanisqatsi

Not to derail, but a friend of mine (son of a Baptist minister, no less) and I one late night came up with the theory (it may not be original) that Revelations was actually the only "true" Christian book in that it was all written in code by the only remaining original followers (aka, in our theory, "insurgents").

The "Jesus movement" was not so much a religious sect as it was an insurgency movement against the Roman occupation, with Jesus being the leader. When the Romans captured and crucified Jesus, the movement went into hiding and the collected pieces found today in the Book of Revelations was their means of communicating what steps to take next; sort of a battle plan for the next stages of the insurrectionist movement, if you will.

Since they were all Jewish, the numerology and imagery and dense theology wouldn't make any sense to a Roman and it would therefore serve nicely as a sort military "battle language."

The reason it was included in the Canon then becomes one of generational influence from the more "secret" sect that all of the "Illuminati" "Masons" and general rumors of such secret societies are borne out of.

We haven't formally broken it down in any way, of course, but at least on the surface it makes sense (in keeping with the insurgence theory) and certainly accounts for how all of those ridiculous rumors of secret societies within Christianity came about and what their original "true" purpose was; ironically to do to the new "Jesus movement" what the Romans did to the original; corrupt it from within, or, barring that, at least keep the original movement's ideology alive and in "plain sight" for anyone who still knew the code, or could figure it out.

Food for thought, anyway.

gregor

Burton Mack puts it under the reign of Trajan (better indications of persecution than under Dominitian) around 112 CE. Plenty of time for Laodicea to be rebuilt and thriving.

Johann_Kaspar

Which part?