Garnet

Hi all. I’ve posted in BC&H a few times before, but for those who don’t know, I’m very ignorant about biblical history, textual criticism and the like. However, I’m fascinated by it all so whenever I can, I try to educate myself a little more. Today, I’ve been reading the Didache on Peter Kirby’s website. This is the translation I’m using:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...e-roberts.html

I have some questions. Please don’t bonk me for these basic and unsophisticated questions…cause basic and unsophisticated is what I be. :Cheeky:

By the way, any opinions on the dating of this thing? The comments I read range from early first century, to 4/5th century, to one gentleman saying that really, it started in the 1st century but was added to later on. Are there different dates for different chapters?

Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment.

This seems to me to be quite a bit from the sermon on the mount. But which came first? Is it possible that this document was used as a reference for the sermon on the mount gospel or was it the other way around? Is there the influence of Q here or did some form of the synoptic gospels already exist when this was written?

I found this phrase interesting, “And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.� I don’t recall this being in the Bible. Is this more of a traditional Jewish saying?

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden

What really struck me here, likely because of my modern female mind is this phrase, “…..you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.� That’s at the end of a list of thou shalt nots. Gawd, I hope this isn’t stupid, but what does abortion mean in this context? Is it at all similar to the modern notion of abortion?

Chapter 4. Various Precepts

I don’t think I understand this, “Do not enjoin anything in your bitterness upon your bondman or maidservant, who hope in the same God, lest ever they shall fear not God who is over both; for he comes not to call according to the outward appearance, but to them whom the Spirit has prepared. And you bondmen shall be subject to your masters as to a type of God, in modesty and fear.� I think I understand the first part in that the owner should treat the believing slave/servant fairly so they understand that God is the master over owner and slave/servant alike. The part that I’m struggling is when the rest of the statement is about slaves/servants being subjects to your masters as to a “type of God.� Is this simply absolute obedience to the master or something more?

Chapter 6. Against False Teachers, and Food Offered to Idols

Is this saying it’s ok to eat food offered to idols, but just be careful?

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism

What does the phrase “living water� mean?

Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer

“But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week.� Who were these hypocrites and why did the day of fasting make them hypocrites?

Chapter 9. The Eucharist.

No mention of the blood and the body of Christ? Does this imply that transubstantiation is a later invention? I find it interesting that Jesus is called the “Servant� not the “Son.� Why is that? Does this reflect more of a messianic belief rather than a god-man belief? Does this imply that the trinity was not a belief at the time this was written?

Chapter 11 Concerning Teachers, Apostles and Prophets vs Chapter 13 Support of Prophets

Chapter 11 lays down rules regarding the proper feeding and care of a prophet…but only for a few days. If more than a few days, then the prophet is false. However, Chapter 13 talks about first fruits and the best products to be given to the prophet. I may have read this in a commentary, but just to confirm. Does Chapter 11 refer to wanderers while Chapter 13 refers to those living in a community?

Chapter 16. Watchfulness: the Coming of the Lord

Wow. It seems to me that this is a rather vivid illustration of how early Christians really believed that Jesus was returning SOON. There are several images seemingly straight out of the book of Revelations. Was this written after? It also seems to me that this chapter implies that the lake of fire is not an eternal torment, but rather those tried by fire shall perish. “Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven,� I thought this was only found one of Paul’s epistles? I can’t remember which one and I don’t have access to a Bible at the moment. Is this phrase helpful in dating of the Didache or is it a possible later addition?

Well, those are my questions from my first and admittedly shallow reading of the Didache. Sorry for the length of this post, but I couldn’t figure out a way to break them down to one at a time.

yummyfur

Strange, I beleive that Mohamed fasted on the second and fifth day of the week. I wonder if this is a reference to Muslims, or maybe early Muslims followed some fasting scheme of some Jewish or Christian sect?

here are the hadith on this

"1256. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Deeds of people are presented (to Allah) on Mondays and Thursdays. So I like that my actions be presented while I am fasting.''
[At-Tirmidhi]."

"1257. `Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her)u reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) used to observe fast on Mondays and Thursdays.
[At-Tirmidhi]. "

Amaleq13

Welcome to IIDB!!

I am far from an expert and far from my Didache notes but I'll offer a couple responses from memory (just so you don't feel ignored )

If, by that, you mean "ending a pregnancy before the birth", I believe the answer is "yes".

I believe it refers to a preference for baptising in a river or stream rather than a manmade-type pool.

No mention of a sacrifice at all, in fact, let alone a crucifixion. Jesus appears to be revered as the Messiah (holy vine of David) and as a source of divine knowledge.

You will find that the word is given as "child", "Son", or even "boy" if you check the other translations provided.

Also, the Swett translation Peter provides includes commentary.

Garnet

Thanks yummyfur and Amaleq.

Edited to add:

The Swett article answers a lot of my questions. Possibly authored by Paul and Barnabus? [Laugh In Moment] Interesting. Very Interesting. [\Laugh In Moment]

andrewcriddle

This is quite likely a condemnation of Jewish practices of the time.

The author may be attempting to clearly distinguish Jewish and Christian rules for fasting.

Andrew Criddle

Steven Avery

“living water� == "mayim chayim". This one I can comment on quickly, maybe other aspects later. "Living water" means live/running water, not stagnant pools or tubs. In the Jewish mikvahs of the time there was an ongoing flow of water, although it could be rather slow. We can see that from the archaelogy as well as historic references. Apparently the concept was similar in some Christian circles. In addition, I think any river or lake would qualify, other than the Dead Sea :-)

I have noticed the wide variance of dating as well. Being reasonably familiar with the baptism concepts in the early church, it is really difficult for me to see the Didache as from the first century, or even the early second century, at least the baptism section. When I researched it a while back, it seemed that all the real early datings were quite conjectural.

Shalom,
Praxeus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Garnet

Thanks for the answers all. I've done some more reading and it seems like dating of this is all over the place. Seems that some parts may be as early as Paul while others are later (first or second century) insertions. Does anyone know of a source that lays out the dating of the different parts and how it is done?

Peter Kirby

Exact dating of the Didache can't be done.

best wishes,
Peter Kirby