Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-27-2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Lets not forget the fact that whoever wrote gMark was also mimicking the OT stories of Elijah and Elisha.

Yes, where was the Septaguint written?

Where was the largest Jewish population, possibly larger than Jerusalem?

steve_bnk · 07-27-2010, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I propose the Gospel of Mark was written in Alexandria as a fictional play to modernise the Iliad and put it in a Jewish context, either by Seneca or a student of his.

According to my Oxford Bible commentary the gospels fit a recognizable literary style of the times.

charles · 07-27-2010, 10:25 PM

Clive you wrote:

Quote:

Yes, where was the Septaguint written?

Where was the largest Jewish population, possibly larger than Jerusalem?

I believe that was in Alexandria.

Cesc · 07-28-2010, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Lets not forget the fact that whoever wrote gMark was also mimicking the OT stories of Elijah and Elisha.

Yes, where was the Septaguint written?

Where was the largest Jewish population, possibly larger than Jerusalem?

I see what you mean. I think.

popgoestheweasel · 07-30-2010, 01:12 PM

I think the theory about Seneca makes eminent sense. Couldn't Seneca have learned a little about Judaism?

Clivedurdle · 07-30-2010, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Seneca’s health suffered, and he went to recuperate in Egypt, where his aunt was the wife of the prefect, Gaius Galerius.

He lived in Alexandria, where the main language was Greek.

Quote:

Ptolemaic and Roman (400 BC to 641 AD)

See also: Leontopolis, Alabarch, Philo, and Elephantine
Further waves of Jewish immigrants settled in Egypt during the Ptolemaic era, especially around Alexandria. Thus, their history in this period centers almost completely on Alexandria, though daughter communities rose up in places like the present Kafr ed-Dawar, and Jews served in the administration as custodians of the river.[5]

As early as the third century B.C. one can speak of a widespread diaspora of Jews in many Egyptian towns and cities. In Josephus's history, it is claimed that, after the first Ptolemy took Judea, he led some 120,000 Jewish captives to Egypt from the areas of Judea, Jerusalem, Samaria, and Mount Gerizim. With them, many other Jews, attracted by the fertile soil and Ptolemy's liberality, emigrated there of their own accord. An inscription recording a Jewish dedication of a synagogue to Ptolemy and Berenice was discovered in the 19th century near Alexandria.[6] Josephus also claims that, soon after, these 120,000 captives were freed of their bondage by Philadelphus [7].

The history of the Alexandrian Jews dates from the foundation of the city by Alexander the Great, 332 B.C., at which they were present. They were numerous from the very outset, forming a notable portion of the city's population under Alexander's successors. The Ptolemies assigned them a separate section, two of the five districts of the city, to enable them to keep their laws pure of indigenous cultic influences. The Alexandrian Jews enjoyed a greater degree of political independence than elsewhere. While the Jews elsewhere throughout the later Roman Empire formed private societies for religious purposes, or else became a corporation of foreigners like the Egyptian and Phoenician merchants in the large commercial centers, those of Alexandria constituted an independent political community, side by side with that of the indigenous population.

For the Roman period there is evidence that at Oxyrynchus (modern Behneseh), on the east side of the Nile, there was a Jewish community of some importance. It even had a Jews' street. Many of the Jews there must have become Christians, though they retained their Biblical names (e.g., "David" and "Elisabeth," occurring in a litigation concerning an inheritance). There is even found a certain Jacob, son of Achilles (c. 300 AD), as beadle of an Egyptian temple.

The Jewish community of Alexandria was virtually wiped out by Trajan 's army during a revolt in 115-117 AD, and Josephus [8] puts the figure for those slaughtered in the vast pogrom at 50,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Egypt

aa5874 · 07-30-2010, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Seneca’s health suffered, and he went to recuperate in Egypt, where his aunt was the wife of the prefect, Gaius Galerius.

He lived in Alexandria, where the main language was Greek.

Quote:

Ptolemaic and Roman (400 BC to 641 AD)

See also: Leontopolis, Alabarch, Philo, and Elephantine
Further waves of Jewish immigrants settled in Egypt during the Ptolemaic era, especially around Alexandria. Thus, their history in this period centers almost completely on Alexandria, though daughter communities rose up in places like the present Kafr ed-Dawar, and Jews served in the administration as custodians of the river.[5]

As early as the third century B.C. one can speak of a widespread diaspora of Jews in many Egyptian towns and cities. In Josephus's history, it is claimed that, after the first Ptolemy took Judea, he led some 120,000 Jewish captives to Egypt from the areas of Judea, Jerusalem, Samaria, and Mount Gerizim. With them, many other Jews, attracted by the fertile soil and Ptolemy's liberality, emigrated there of their own accord. An inscription recording a Jewish dedication of a synagogue to Ptolemy and Berenice was discovered in the 19th century near Alexandria.[6] Josephus also claims that, soon after, these 120,000 captives were freed of their bondage by Philadelphus [7].

The history of the Alexandrian Jews dates from the foundation of the city by Alexander the Great, 332 B.C., at which they were present. They were numerous from the very outset, forming a notable portion of the city's population under Alexander's successors. The Ptolemies assigned them a separate section, two of the five districts of the city, to enable them to keep their laws pure of indigenous cultic influences. The Alexandrian Jews enjoyed a greater degree of political independence than elsewhere. While the Jews elsewhere throughout the later Roman Empire formed private societies for religious purposes, or else became a corporation of foreigners like the Egyptian and Phoenician merchants in the large commercial centers, those of Alexandria constituted an independent political community, side by side with that of the indigenous population.

For the Roman period there is evidence that at Oxyrynchus (modern Behneseh), on the east side of the Nile, there was a Jewish community of some importance. It even had a Jews' street. Many of the Jews there must have become Christians, though they retained their Biblical names (e.g., "David" and "Elisabeth," occurring in a litigation concerning an inheritance). There is even found a certain Jacob, son of Achilles (c. 300 AD), as beadle of an Egyptian temple.

The Jewish community of Alexandria was virtually wiped out by Trajan 's army during a revolt in 115-117 AD, and Josephus [8] puts the figure for those slaughtered in the vast pogrom at 50,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Egypt

Does not Josephus' writings end long before 115-117 AD? There may be an error. I don't think Josephus wrote about the time of Trajan.

Clivedurdle · 07-31-2010, 01:03 AM

This seems a better source - it is unclear that there was a massacre under Trajan.

http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/alex.htm

But Caligula seems significant!

Quote:

By the time Caius (Caligula) succeded to the principate, the novelty of having an Emperor was starting to wear thin, and Alexandria was once more embroiled in civil unrest. There was extensive rioting between Greeks and Jews, an old Alexandrian problem which had resurfaced. This was, perhaps, partly due to Caligula's appointment of Herod Agrippa as King of Judea, who was a debtor to many Alexandrian moneylenders, and who unfortunately stopped at the city en route to Jerusalem. The Jews themselves were annoyed at his appointment, and the Greeks were even less pleased. Furthermore, the Jews were refusing to erect or worship statues of Caligula. Tensions and riots multiplied. The Jewish historian Philo recorded these events and his own participation as an envoy to Rome in 38 A.D. in his Delegation to Caius and On Flaccus , the latter referring to Caius' anti- semitic friend and replacement for the previous Alexandrian prefect. In addition, an anonymous first and second century Acts of the Pagan Martyrs , a text of uncertain origin composed in the form of dialogues between anti-semitic envoys and unsympathetic emperors, presents a fictionalized opposing view.[36] Unrest over the Jewish-Greek struggle continued through the next several emperors, as well as general anti-Roman disturbences and protests concerning the abolished Council. The only mention of the Museum in this period is that Suetonius says that it was substantially enlarged by the Emperor Claudius, as appropriate for that misunderstood scholar of the Julio-Claudian family

Clivedurdle · 07-31-2010, 01:22 AM

I am getting very confused here. Seneca was in Alexandria at some point between 16 and 30 CE.

What happened historically then?

Are the Jesus tales a retelling of very significant events that Seneca may have witnessed or followed because of his first hand knowledge of Alexandria?

(I'm probably discussing the xianity in Egypt thread as well).

Bede notes that in 50 CE Seneca writes that the library of Alexandria has 40,000 scrolls.

darstec · 07-31-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

When was it that the catholic church took offense at the church in Alexandria and came to put it out of business, or so I seem to remember from somewhere?

There is no agreement about this among scholars. Most naively think that Alexandria was in perfect accord with the Roman Church. Clement is counted as an 'orthodox' Church Father, so too Origen etc (despite the fact that both were eventually thrown out of the Catholic canon of saints).

I would argue that if you went to the house of a slave owner you'd also see smiling faces from the slaves and 'perfect accord.'

The question is of course why are the persecutions of Christianity concentrated in Egypt and north Africa throughout the third century ...

I think you are confusing the fact that the Roman Catholic Church removed a lot of saints from the list because they could not actually validate their existence with considering they might not have supported Orthodoxy as it has now been revised.

Most of the former saints hit the chopping block because of embarrassment that it could not be demonstrated that they actually existed when and where they were supposed to have been. Even the beloved St. Christopher of medallion fame got excised for that reason.

Or maybe god changed his mind like he did when he decided that eating meat and meat products on Friday was no longer a mortal sin. Or when he changed his mind about allowing blacks into the Mormon Church just because it would lose it's tax free status (a perfect example of give unto Caesar if there ever was one). God's reasoning -- just too many darn saints to keep track of and not enough days in the year for them to have their own feast days.

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07-30-2010, 01:12 PM	#15
popgoestheweasel Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: northeast Posts: 18	I think the theory about Seneca makes eminent sense. Couldn't Seneca have learned a little about Judaism?

07-31-2010, 01:22 AM	#19
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I am getting very confused here. Seneca was in Alexandria at some point between 16 and 30 CE. What happened historically then? Are the Jesus tales a retelling of very significant events that Seneca may have witnessed or followed because of his first hand knowledge of Alexandria? (I'm probably discussing the xianity in Egypt thread as well). Bede notes that in 50 CE Seneca writes that the library of Alexandria has 40,000 scrolls.

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