Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-24-2010, 10:34 AM

I propose the Gospel of Mark was written in Alexandria as a fictional play to modernise the Iliad and put it in a Jewish context, either by Seneca or a student of his.

Toto · 07-24-2010, 10:43 AM

Your first problem: Seneca is not usually associated with Alexandria. He may have visited Egypt with his aunt, but lived his adult life in Rome until he was exiled to Corsica.

Also, he wrote in Latin. And why would he want to adapt the Iliad to a Jewish context?

stephan huller · 07-24-2010, 04:13 PM

Hi, I always like helping people. If you were to develop this theory further I might have an idea that could pursue. I have always had this suspicion about 'Pantainos,' the teacher of Clement, Origen, Heraclas and the early Alexandrian tradition.

I can't help but notice that Clement never mentions Pantainos but does identify an anonymous 'instructor' of the Alexandrian community. Most scholars assume this is Jesus however when we look at the details of the martyrdom of Peter of Alexandria - a Pope who lived a century after Clement - we see St. Mark identified as 'the instructor and teacher' of Alexandria. To Theodore identifies Mark establishing his gospel as mystagogue of the community and it got me thinking - maybe Pantainos was really the secret gospel of Mark, in other words the itself text was identified as pant ainos.

How does this connect with your theory? I am no expert on the Iliad but I happened to notice that the word 'pant ainon' appears in Nestor's speech in Book 23 of the Iliad. Harvard's Gregory Nagy has developed a complicated theory that the speech has a hidden meaning (like the secret Gospel) which involves the divine 'nous' and 'thought' (like gnosis).

In Homeric Greek the definite article drops so panta ton ainon becomes pant' ainon. Indeed it is this form which is used to describe Nestor's speech after the death of Patrocles. As Nagy notes the term ainos means 'coded words' or speech almost exactly in the manner in which Alexandrian Christians would employ the Platonic term gnostic (it is also the related to the term 'enigma'). It is apparently understood that Nestor secretly communicated 'coded messages' in this speech to his son to help him win the chariot race established in Patrocles' honor.

One might speculate for instance that pant' ainos was being applied to whatever 'correct' - i.e. gnostic - interpretation of the gospel among the Alexandrian community in the period. I am still toying with the idea that it might have even been a reference to the 'whole ainos' i.e. where the canonical gospel of Mark was only an incomplete ainos (I am at present waiting for the following doctoral thesis to arrive from Claremont The heroic ainos : Jesus in the gospel of Mark / (2006) by Ho Kim.

I have also had discussions with Nagy about Clement's description of Secret Mark and he agrees it could be interpreted as a 'pant ainos':

transferred to his former book the things suitable to whatever makes for progress toward knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue, lead the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of that truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum, he prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautiously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries.

I have discovered that there were 'real historical individuals' named Pantaenus. (1) Pericles the son of Pantaenus (2) T Flavius Pantaenus. Nevertheless it is interesting to note that the Patristic references to Pantainos 'couple him' with the Gospel of the Hebrews the ur-text of the Gospel traveling to India and all sorts of exotic lands with this text.

Maybe you can follow up with this. Life is too short. Too little time to get everything done before we die ....

Doug Shaver · 07-25-2010, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I propose the Gospel of Mark was written in Alexandria as a fictional play to modernise the Iliad and put it in a Jewish context, either by Seneca or a student of his.

Other than "It's not impossible," do you have any evidence in favor of that proposal?

stephan huller · 07-25-2010, 11:33 AM

If you mean by 'play' an ancient version of Hello Dolly where people sat in open air amphitheaters, the answer would be no - that's not possible. All evidence suggest that the text was connected with a mystery religion.

Transient · 07-25-2010, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If you mean by 'play' an ancient version of Hello Dolly where people sat in open air amphitheaters, the answer would be no - that's not possible. All evidence suggest that the text was connected with a mystery religion.

When was it that the catholic church took offense at the church in Alexandria and came to put it out of business, or so I seem to remember from somewhere? Was it after Eusibeus and Constantine?

Clivedurdle · 07-25-2010, 12:10 PM

The main task of the Library of Alexandria, apart from collecting everything, was studying Homer and doing riffs on it.

Homer and Mark definitely requires further thought.

Quote:

This is an incredible book that must be read by everyone with an interest in Christianity. MacDonald's shocking thesis is that the Gospel of Mark is a deliberate and conscious anti-epic, an inversion of the Greek "Bible" of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, which in a sense "updates" and Judaizes the outdated heroic values presented by Homer, in the figure of a new hero, Jesus (whose name, of course, means "Savior"). When I first heard of this I assumed it would be yet another intriguing but only barely defensible search for parallels, stretching the evidence a little too far—tantalizing, but inconclusive. What I found was exactly the opposite. MacDonald's case is thorough, and though many of his points are not as conclusive as he makes them out to be, when taken as a cumulative whole the evidence is so abundant and clear it cannot be denied. And being a skeptic to the thick, I would never say this lightly. Several scholars who reviewed or commented on it have said this book will revolutionize the field of Gospel studies and profoundly affect our understanding of the origins of Christianity, and though I had taken this for hype, after reading the book I now echo that very sentiment myself.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...erandmark.html

Quote:

ver since the Enlightenment, when the gospels began to be studied in a rationalistic frame of mind as literary works within their ancient context, parallels have been drawn between the passion of Jesus and the rituals and mysteries of the dying and resurrecting gods such as Dionysus and Osiris. The death and resurrection of Osiris was enacted annually in a dramatic performance. Greek tragedy evolved from sacred plays in honor of Dionysus. Did primitive Christianity, too, begin as ritual drama?

The economy of the Gospel narratives is related to the ritual commemoration of the Passion; taking them literally we run the risk of transposing into history what are really the successive incidents of a religious drama,

so wrote Alfred Loisy, one of the most perceptive New Testament scholars of our time.[2] J. M. Robertson went even further, claiming that the story of the passion is

the bare transcript of a primitive play... always we are witnessing drama, of which the spectators needed no description, and of which the subsequent transcriber reproduces simply the action and the words...[3]

Even theologians who are less daring in framing hypotheses continue to stumble upon traces of some ancient drama that appears to underlie the passion narrative.[4] S.G.F. Brandon is impressed by the superb theatrical montage of the trial of Jesus[5] ; Raymond Brown finds that John’s gospel contains touches worthy of great drama in many of its scenes and suggests that our text may be the product of a dramatic rewriting on such a scale that little historical material remains.[6] But none of these scholars has succeeded in reconstructing this drama or identifying its author. They came very close to the truth but missed a crucial elementthe drama that constituted the kernel of the passion story was not a primitive ritual performance, but a tragedy of considerable subtlety and sophistication.

The gospels themselves contain evidence that the creator of this tragedy was someone imbued with the cultural values of the early Roman Empire, a playwright of unusual abilities, who used drama as a vehicle for expressing specific philosophical concepts.

http://www.nazarenus.com/0-4-tragospel.htm

Quote:

Lucius Annaeus Seneca

ARTICLE
from theEncyclopædia Britannica
byname Seneca The Younger
born c. 4 bc, Corduba, Spain
died ad 65, Rome

Roman philosopher, statesman, orator, and tragedian. He was Rome’s leading intellectual figure in the mid-1st century ad and was virtual ruler with his friends of the Roman world between 54 and 62 during the first phase of the emperor Nero’s reign.

Early life and family

Seneca was the second son of a wealthy family. The father, Lucius Annaeus Seneca (Seneca the Elder), had been famous in Rome as a teacher of rhetoric; the mother, Helvia, was of excellent character and education; the older brother was Gallio, met by St. Paul in Achaea in ad 52; the younger brother was the father of the poet Lucan. An aunt took Lucius as a boy to Rome; there he was trained as an orator and educated in philosophy in the school of the Sextii, which blended Stoicism with an ascetic neo-Pythagoreanism. Seneca’s health suffered, and he went to recuperate in Egypt, where his aunt was the wife of the prefect, Gaius Galerius. Returning to Rome about the year 31, he began a career in politics and law. Soon he fell foul of the emperor Caligula, who was deterred from killing him only by the argument that his life was sure to be short.

In 41 the emperor Claudius banished Seneca to Corsica on a charge of adultery with the princess Julia Livilla, the Emperor’s niece. In that uncongenial milieu he studied natural science and philosophy and wrote the three treatises entitled Consolationes. The influence of Agrippina, the Emperor’s wife, had him recalled to Rome in 49. He became praetor in ad 50, married Pompeia Paulina, a wealthy woman, built up a powerful group of friends, including the new prefect of the guard, Sextus Afranius Burrus, and became tutor to the future emperor Nero.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...Annaeus-Seneca

So Seneca could speak Greek, knew Egypt and its oriental cults and very likely its Jewish population, was very powerful and could write.

Why is he not taken seriously as the author of Mark, especially as the timeline and his experience fits?

one of Seneca's nine closet-dramas is an Oedipus inspired by Sophocles' tragedy. The Latin adaption places great emphasis on the vicarious aspect of Oedipus's suffering: the Thebans are spared because the guilt for the pollution is placed upon Oedipus, who having sinned unknowingly, is innocent.
[Clivedurdle, look out! The author of "Mark" is more likely a Roman imitator of Seneca.]

And where precisely might the gospels have got their acknowledged Greek philosophical ideas from? A brilliant Roman in his 20's living in Alexandria?

(People are aware Alexandria is a Greek City aren't they?)

stephan huller · 07-25-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

When was it that the catholic church took offense at the church in Alexandria and came to put it out of business, or so I seem to remember from somewhere?

There is no agreement about this among scholars. Most naively think that Alexandria was in perfect accord with the Roman Church. Clement is counted as an 'orthodox' Church Father, so too Origen etc (despite the fact that both were eventually thrown out of the Catholic canon of saints).

I would argue that if you went to the house of a slave owner you'd also see smiling faces from the slaves and 'perfect accord.'

The question is of course why are the persecutions of Christianity concentrated in Egypt and north Africa throughout the third century ...

charles · 07-25-2010, 06:44 PM

Weren't there persecutions in other locales? Wikipedia says:

Quote:

In 341, the Zoroastrian Shapur II ordered the massacre of all Christians in Persia. During the persecution, about 1,150 Christians were martyred under Shapur II. In the 4th century, the Terving King Athanaric began persecuting Christians, many of whom were killed

Cesc · 07-26-2010, 03:52 PM

Lets not forget the fact that whoever wrote gMark was also mimicking the OT stories of Elijah and Elisha.

07-24-2010, 10:34 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Alexandria I propose the Gospel of Mark was written in Alexandria as a fictional play to modernise the Iliad and put it in a Jewish context, either by Seneca or a student of his.

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07-24-2010, 10:43 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Your first problem: Seneca is not usually associated with Alexandria. He may have visited Egypt with his aunt, but lived his adult life in Rome until he was exiled to Corsica. Also, he wrote in Latin. And why would he want to adapt the Iliad to a Jewish context?

07-24-2010, 04:13 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Hi, I always like helping people. If you were to develop this theory further I might have an idea that could pursue. I have always had this suspicion about 'Pantainos,' the teacher of Clement, Origen, Heraclas and the early Alexandrian tradition. I can't help but notice that Clement never mentions Pantainos but does identify an anonymous 'instructor' of the Alexandrian community. Most scholars assume this is Jesus however when we look at the details of the martyrdom of Peter of Alexandria - a Pope who lived a century after Clement - we see St. Mark identified as 'the instructor and teacher' of Alexandria. To Theodore identifies Mark establishing his gospel as mystagogue of the community and it got me thinking - maybe Pantainos was really the secret gospel of Mark, in other words the itself text was identified as pant ainos. How does this connect with your theory? I am no expert on the Iliad but I happened to notice that the word 'pant ainon' appears in Nestor's speech in Book 23 of the Iliad. Harvard's Gregory Nagy has developed a complicated theory that the speech has a hidden meaning (like the secret Gospel) which involves the divine 'nous' and 'thought' (like gnosis). In Homeric Greek the definite article drops so panta ton ainon becomes pant' ainon. Indeed it is this form which is used to describe Nestor's speech after the death of Patrocles. As Nagy notes the term ainos means 'coded words' or speech almost exactly in the manner in which Alexandrian Christians would employ the Platonic term gnostic (it is also the related to the term 'enigma'). It is apparently understood that Nestor secretly communicated 'coded messages' in this speech to his son to help him win the chariot race established in Patrocles' honor. One might speculate for instance that pant' ainos was being applied to whatever 'correct' - i.e. gnostic - interpretation of the gospel among the Alexandrian community in the period. I am still toying with the idea that it might have even been a reference to the 'whole ainos' i.e. where the canonical gospel of Mark was only an incomplete ainos (I am at present waiting for the following doctoral thesis to arrive from Claremont The heroic ainos : Jesus in the gospel of Mark / (2006) by Ho Kim. I have also had discussions with Nagy about Clement's description of Secret Mark and he agrees it could be interpreted as a 'pant ainos': transferred to his former book the things suitable to whatever makes for progress toward knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue, lead the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of that truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum, he prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautiously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries. I have discovered that there were 'real historical individuals' named Pantaenus. (1) Pericles the son of Pantaenus (2) T Flavius Pantaenus. Nevertheless it is interesting to note that the Patristic references to Pantainos 'couple him' with the Gospel of the Hebrews the ur-text of the Gospel traveling to India and all sorts of exotic lands with this text. Maybe you can follow up with this. Life is too short. Too little time to get everything done before we die ....

07-25-2010, 11:33 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	If you mean by 'play' an ancient version of Hello Dolly where people sat in open air amphitheaters, the answer would be no - that's not possible. All evidence suggest that the text was connected with a mystery religion.

07-26-2010, 03:52 PM	#10
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	Lets not forget the fact that whoever wrote gMark was also mimicking the OT stories of Elijah and Elisha.

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