Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dogfish · 01-09-2008, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Why would I have to choose the Bible (Bible, Koran, Torah) as the alternative? All of them make the claim to being the Word of God just as that sentence does. Hindu mythology has its scripture. Jain mythology has its scripture. All of them make the same claim: this scripture is true because it says it is dictated by God. Just like Joseph Smith. Just like....

The issue is how to choose.

How do you know you have made the correct leap of faith? I hope it is not because the scripture says it is correct due to revelation. There have been too many contradictory revelations to trust revelation as a source of truth.

God spoke to me in a dream (details on request) and said He saves everyone. Do you trust this revelation? If not, why not? It has just as much basis as any other revelation. He also told me to follow these rules and be loving and honorable.

1. Respect for all life, but especially human life, is moral.

2. Aggressive (not defensive) first use of force is immoral.

3. Taking unearned value --theft -- is immoral.

4. Threat of use of force for gain of unearned value is immoral.

5. Deceit for gain of unearned value or to cause harm is immoral.

You and everyone else is equally saved.

How am I not as able to have a revelation as any prophet. My moral rules are sound. Be honorable and loving and follow the rules. You are saved anyway, so make a life that feels good to you and all others you come in contact with.

How do you know that ancient revelation is any more valid than current revelation. Why not join my church? It has no priests and is free.

OK. Now we have your claim that God spoke to you that we add to all the other claims. It's one more claim that people have to choose from.

Your claim is that all are saved. That makes it unnecessary to attend your church and it seems that many people believe you and are already following you.

Didn't answer the question.

George S · 01-09-2008, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

OK. Now we have your claim that God spoke to you that we add to all the other claims. It's one more claim that people have to choose from.

Your claim is that all are saved. That makes it unnecessary to attend your church and it seems that many people believe you and are already following you.

Didn't answer the question.

My guess is that he doesn't know how he knows that his faith is right. He seems to have thought I was pushing my "church" as a reasonable faith. It is a reasonable humanist philosophy at best and may be missing some details.

How about it, rhutchin, can you answer how you believe what you believe to be true? Can you justify your claim that your faith is true?

rhutchin · 01-09-2008, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

OK. Now we have your claim that God spoke to you that we add to all the other claims. It's one more claim that people have to choose from.

Your claim is that all are saved. That makes it unnecessary to attend your church and it seems that many people believe you and are already following you.

Didn't answer the question.

OK. Why don't you tell us how you would answer it. How would you go about determining which of several alleged revelations from God is a true revelation and which is false?

Nonetheless, I answered the question. I know that George Hathaway's revelation is meaningless as God has revealed to him that He will save everyone and even suggested some rules for people to follow which are not required for salvation. That makes it unnecessary for any person to react to George's revelation, does it not, since the final outcome is not influenced by the actions people take with respect to the revelation? Consequently, we are left to consider only those revelations that would impact us adversely if we do not follow them so the ancient revelation we find in the Bible is shown to be more valid than the revelation George claims to have received.

rhutchin · 01-09-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

How about it, rhutchin, can you answer how you believe what you believe to be true? Can you justify your claim that your faith is true?

The justification for believing that faith, or belief, in the Bible is that which the Bible tells us. The historical accounts collected over the years and included in the Bible, tell us of interactions between many different individuals and God. They present the case for believing that there is a God who is as the writers have described Him. I accept the testimony of the great number of witnesses to be true and accurate.

Now, can you explain how you believe what you believe to be true? Can you justify your claim that your faith is true?

rhutchin · 01-09-2008, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The Biblical writers provide much information to support their claims so that a person has a wealth of information on which to base any decision he makes. I still don't see why it is necessarily goofy to consider the testimony of the Biblical writers based on the credentials they present.

Because nothing that would even HINT at a supernatural origin is corroborated by an outside source. And I think the only "credentials" you accept is that they were inspired by god. Another circular argument.

Just remember to "point" during you're spinning - you won't get as dizzy.

Given your requirements, you cannot believe that the universe could pop into existence through natural causes and you certainly cannot believe that a living organism spontaneously appeared out on non-living matter. All you can basically believe is that you now live and one one will not and that there is no real purpose for your life other than to exist for a short time and then to die.

George S · 01-09-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

How about it, rhutchin, can you answer how you believe what you believe to be true? Can you justify your claim that your faith is true?

The justification for believing that faith, or belief, in the Bible is that which the Bible tells us. The historical accounts collected over the years and included in the Bible, tell us of interactions between many different individuals and God. They present the case for believing that there is a God who is as the writers have described Him. I accept the testimony of the great number of witnesses to be true and accurate.

Now, can you explain how you believe what you believe to be true? Can you justify your claim that your faith is true?

That justification of yours "is believing that which the Bible tells us" to believe is no justification at all. It is the identical justification with just as much validity as the one Khomeini and Buddha use. And just as reliable.

I believe what I believe to be true because of evidence. I do not believe, for example, that my own revelation is true.

My atheism is the result of observation of the reality that I can perceive with my senses and reason about using my mind.

George S · 01-09-2008, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Given your requirements, you cannot believe that the universe could pop into existence through natural causes and you certainly cannot believe that a living organism spontaneously appeared out on non-living matter. All you can basically believe is that you now live and one one will not and that there is no real purpose for your life other than to exist for a short time and then to die.

This popping into existence thing. If something or someone popped into existence and thus did the something-from-nothing trick. What makes it more probable that a God was that someone rather than a Universe being that something?

Perhaps it didn't pop. There is no need for a beginning even in the case of a time that is not infinite in the past. Time is the measurement of cycles -- natural cycles that pre-exist the measurement. We measure duration by counting how many cycles occur during a given spatial change.

Count back in time by dividing by two. You never run out of instants, and yet there is no time zero to be found. No "pop."

You want a purpose? I would suggest this: <life> put excellent and meaningful relationships with other human beings here </life>.

rhutchin · 01-09-2008, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

How about it, rhutchin, can you answer how you believe what you believe to be true? Can you justify your claim that your faith is true?

The justification for believing that faith, or belief, in the Bible is that which the Bible tells us. The historical accounts collected over the years and included in the Bible, tell us of interactions between many different individuals and God. They present the case for believing that there is a God who is as the writers have described Him. I accept the testimony of the great number of witnesses to be true and accurate.

Now, can you explain how you believe what you believe to be true? Can you justify your claim that your faith is true?

That justification of yours "is believing that which the Bible tells us" to believe is no justification at all. It is the identical justification with just as much validity as the one Khomeini and Buddha use. And just as reliable.

Sure. Evaluations of historical accounts tend to be subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

I believe what I believe to be true because of evidence. I do not believe, for example, that my own revelation is true.

Is that because you personally know that you did not receive a revelation? Nonetheless, it is possible for you to maintain the truth of what you claim, is it not, and there is no empirical way for a person to prove the truth of what you say other than for that person to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

My atheism is the result of observation of the reality that I can perceive with my senses and reason about using my mind.

Yep. That is a subjective evaluation, also. That makes you no different than anyone else.

rhutchin · 01-09-2008, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Given your requirements, you cannot believe that the universe could pop into existence through natural causes and you certainly cannot believe that a living organism spontaneously appeared out on non-living matter. All you can basically believe is that you now live and one one will not and that there is no real purpose for your life other than to exist for a short time and then to die.

This popping into existence thing. If something or someone popped into existence and thus did the something-from-nothing trick. What makes it more probable that a God was that someone rather than a Universe being that something?

There is no natural law that allows for the universe to pop into existence through natural means. The only way the universe can exist is for it to have had a supernatural origin. The Bible provides an explanation for the way this supernatural origin came about.

George S · 01-09-2008, 06:58 AM

The spontaneous arising of life from inanimate matter has a very low probability. That a crystal of DNA with a message to the universe "reproduce me" is very unlikely. So unlikely that it may even have been a one-time event. Evidence of being able to metabolize only left-handed fat molecules (Olestra is right-handed ones) is strong evidence of the happening being a one time event. Precursors to DNA like RNA might have been that which crystallized the first DNA. And before that maybe clay substrates on which globs of RNA collected. Or maybe they collected in naturally occurring vacuoles which arise easily in hydrophylic amino acid chains.

Remember ... the first few billion years of this Earth's existence had no life at all. How big is a billion? About the number of heartbeats in a human life in round numbers. (See Isaac Asimov's book: Only a Billion.) The number of actinium atoms in each human body is very rare: Only a Billion.

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01-09-2008, 06:58 AM	#130
George S Contributor Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 16,498	The spontaneous arising of life from inanimate matter has a very low probability. That a crystal of DNA with a message to the universe "reproduce me" is very unlikely. So unlikely that it may even have been a one-time event. Evidence of being able to metabolize only left-handed fat molecules (Olestra is right-handed ones) is strong evidence of the happening being a one time event. Precursors to DNA like RNA might have been that which crystallized the first DNA. And before that maybe clay substrates on which globs of RNA collected. Or maybe they collected in naturally occurring vacuoles which arise easily in hydrophylic amino acid chains. Remember ... the first few billion years of this Earth's existence had no life at all. How big is a billion? About the number of heartbeats in a human life in round numbers. (See Isaac Asimov's book: Only a Billion.) The number of actinium atoms in each human body is very rare: Only a Billion.

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