Calilasseia

Now there's a question.

Hat Tip to Mung Bean for this one!

Just how tall was this Tower of Babel supposed to be before it had the rug pulled from under it?

Plus, what sort of engineering techniques were used to construct it (assuming it ever existed of course)?

And, what fate would await a cylindrical structure constructed using the kind of building techniques and materials available to people of the same vintage as pre-Dynastic Egyptians if it climbed beyond, say, 1,000 feet in height?

Only I gather that engineers these days have to engage in some fairly ferocious computer modelling to make sure that some of their super-tall skyscrapers don't fall down under their own weight. Then of course there are some practical details, such as how you get the building materials up to the top to continue the task once the structure is a decent height. It's not as if these people had heavy lift helicopters or gantry cranes to help them, is it?

ck1

But Babel was not the first time anyone engaged in building in Genesis. See 4:17. Cain, after having killed his brother, took a wife and they had a son. Then Cain built a city named for his baby boy. He did this by himself or maybe with his wife's help (Cain had moved away from his parents by that time.) So these early humans were quite the builders.

Pappy Jack

Maybe they had Brownies?

Constant Mews

But Dave is quite emphatic that no post flood artifacts will be found - since the massive 1+ miles of sediment has buried them. Why stone artifacts would not be preserved while delicate organic forms and paleosols are, is a puzzling question that Dave has been unable to answer.

Pappy Jack

Yes, and insofar this thread is supposedly concerned with Egypt, I remain intrigued to see the timeframe Dave suggests all those Predynastic artefacts should be crammed into - three layers of occupation at Maadi, for example.

Dave Hawkins

I am quoting the OP of this thread so as to remind everyone the focus of the thread, since there are numerous rabbit trails which have begun. I COULD answer all these rabbit trails because I DO have answers, contrary to the periodic propaganda pieces that some people post. But I respect the mods wishes of keeping topics narrow, so I will hold my tongue except on the areas that directly relate to this OP. If you stick around long enough and peruse other threads, you will probably find my answers to many of your questions.

So ... sticking to the OP, it appears RED DAVE wants to know ... "How can creationists say there was a Global Flood when the founding of the ancient Egyptian civilization dates prior to most creationist (such as Ussher) dates for the Flood? Where is the evidence of the entire Egyptian culture being wiped out by a flood, then resuming normally with no evidence of an interruption."

And my answer is ...

1) The dates for the founding of ancient Egypt are likely much too early. Rohl points out that the entire Egyptian chronology is based upon an assumption which is probably incorrect, yet has remained unchallenged until Rohl. Champollion identified Shishak with Shoshenk I based on an incorrect reading of Name Ring 29 on Shoshenk I’s campaign city list (Test of Time, p. 122). Rohl gives many more evidences and makes a strong case that everything is not solid with Egyptian chronology. In Rohl’s corrected New Chronology, we find much evidence for Israel’s activities (assumed to be missing by conventionalists), including …
* A Papyrus dated to the generation just prior to the birth of Moses listing slaves with Hebrew names–Menahem, Issachar, Asher, and Shiprah (one of the names of a Hebrew midwife listed in Exodus 1:15-21) (Rohl, p. 276)
* Manetho wrote that in the reign of Dudimose (the Pharoah of the Exodus under the New Chronology), ‘a blast of God smote us’ (i.e. the Egyptians) (p. 283). See my beginnings of a book review at my blog http://afdave.wordpres.com

2) So I believe that Egypt was founded AFTER the Flood and possibly AFTER the Tower of Babel incident (although the Genesis Record does not say that ALL people were at Babel at the time of the Dispersion so there could have already been a group in Egypt prior to the Dispersion)

3) Piazzi Smyth places the building of the Great Pyramid in Egypt in 2170 BC based on astronomical alignments. His date comes from the calculations of two prominent British astronomers, Sir John Herschel and Richard A. Proctor. Dean Anderson dismisses this and says Smyth was wrong, but I don't believe Anderson has read Herschel or Proctor to see their arguments, so I don't know what basis he has for saying they are wrong. I have not read them either, but I think we should not dismiss their ideas without first reading them.

4) Piazzi Smyth is often dismissed because it is supposed that Flinders Petrie disproved his measurements of the Great Pyramid with his own measurements, but, as we have seen, this is not true. The truth is that Petrie only thought he disproved Smyth's theory of advanced scientific knowledge of the GP builders, but the reason he thought so was because he failed to account for the hollowed in faces on all four sides of the GP. Dean Anderson thinks that the photo which showed this "hollowing in" effect was airbrushed, but I presented much evidence that it was not ... including evidence from Petrie's own original Pyramid report. I laid all this out earlier in this thread and I don't think Dean has answered this. So as far as I can tell, Smyth's "beautiful theory" as Petrie called it, is intact.

5) Post-Flood population growth is also an issue and I initially threw out a 2% growth rate, simply because this is a number which was approached very closely in the last century. So it is a real number that we have experience with. And that real number is a reflection primarily of non-developed country growth, which is important, because the early post-Flood peoples would not have had access to modern medicine. So my point was that the postulated 600 years from Smyth's Flood date to Smyth's GP building date is more than enough time to have a large enough population to provide manpower for building the GP. Dean jumped in and started trying to make me look silly by talking about fractional people, but this is just a red herring. I never claimed that 2% models the situation exactly. It was a rough approximation. I accepted Dean's challenge, though, and posted a new, more realistic model which assumes that each couple had 5 kids each which lived to adulthood, married and had kids of their own. This model shows that it is quite easy to get hundreds of millions of people in 600 years if you neglect deaths due to old age. (An assumption everyone here questions, but for which I will present evidence in a new thread entitled "Ancient Longevity" or something.) But even without this assumption, it should be clear that we can get many millions of people.

I will do two things soon ... 1) post a new growth spreadsheet w/o the longevity assumption, and 2) reduce the number of kids and change other variables and see how many people we get.

shirley knott

But you won't address the key question of just where in Egypt, the Yucatan, and China I can find the mile-thick sediment layer you asserted buried all prior civilizations?
You also need to address why and how the immediate offspring of Noah so thoroughly abandoned Yahweh and monotheism when building the polytheism, evolving polytheism no less, of Ancient Egypt.
None of the effluent in your post addresses the key issues which destroy the Egyptology you are attempting to defned.
Sad, really.
Kindly provide the evidence you asserted you had, and have asserted is the basis for your beliefs and worldview, or recant the Egypt nonsense.
Most particulary, just where is this mile thick sediment layer?

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

ericmurphy

And remember, Dave: nothing you can say about Egyptian civilization can prove, or even provide evidence, that your flood ever happened. The best you can do is try to show that the existence of Egyptian civilization at a given point in time doesn't rule out the existence of your "flood" entirely. A flood the existence of which has already been ruled out based on a mountain of contrary evidence which shows it not only didn't happen, but that it could not have happened.

Occam's Aftershave

No Dave, you don't. That is pretty obvious after a year+ of your evasions and stalling.

When will you be going to the Creationism/Grand Canyon thread and answering all the questions for you there?
When will you be going to the Information/Crick thread and answering all the questions for you there?
When will you be going to the Adam, Eve, Genesis thread and answering all the questions for you there?
When will you be going to the Creator Was A Moron thread and answering all the questions for you there?
When will you be going to the Messinian salinity crisis thread and answering all the questions for you there?

We've been asking these same questions for over a year Dave, but you NEVER answer. Why is that?

Oh, just to keep this on topic - Where is the 1 mi. thick layer of Flood sediment in Egypt Dave? Is the GP built on top of it?

Occam's Aftershave

Dave, did you know that because of the high interest in petroleum exploration, Egypt is one of the most extensively geologically analyzed areas in the world?

Here is a nice overview from the American Association of Petroleum Geologists

Geology of Egypt





Dave, please point out to me the 1 mile deep Flood sediment layer in these diagrams. I can't seem to find it anywhere. :huh:

Thanks in advance.