Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RED DAVE · 04-02-2007, 05:35 PM

This is a spinoff from a previous thread on Biblical Chronology. No answer has been forthcoming from praxeus, so I thought I'd start a thread.

From praxeus:

Quote:

And the flood is incidentally at least 4500 years ago, or perhaps somewhat more, per the Bible account.

From RED DAVE:

Quote:

Problem is, praxeus, if we accept your offhand figure, "4500 years ago," that lands us during the Old Kingdom, a most productive period in Egyptian culture (pyramids and all that).

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehisto.../timeline.html

From RED DAVE:

Quote:

It's real simple, praxeus. Just find some record of the moment when the entire Egyptian civilization (about 2 million people) was wiped out.

Then explain how it was reconstituted with the original language, religion, culture, economy, etc., with no gap.

Remember, we're not talking about war, famine, invasion, exile, weapons of mass destruction, etc. We're talking about the whole country underwater for months with everyone dead. Then a handful of Noah's descendants, from a different culture, speaking a different language, with a different religion, reconstitute everything, including the population, and no one refers to it.

RED DAVE

RED DAVE · 04-05-2007, 09:46 PM

Still waiting for a response from praxeus. Hope springs eternal within the human breast.

RED DAVE

Agemegos · 04-06-2007, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Hope springs eternal within the human breast.

Man never is, but always to be blessed.

Dave Reed · 04-06-2007, 02:55 PM

Yes, this date of 4500 years back does present a problem. No doubt it
came from the "young earth" advocates. If the earth is 6000 years old,
then the flood would have to be < 6000 years ago. I do happen to
believe in the universal flood, but I would have a difficult time
dating it, to my own satisfaction. I believe I have heard somewhere
that the civilization which produced the Sphynx, thought to be the
oldest man made "structure", was very different than the culture which
produced the Egyptian pyramids, 1000s of years later. If you're looking
for a "gap", this could be it. Something interesting about the account
of the flood, is that it's one of the few Biblically recorded events,
which has HUGE support from many other cultures as well. I've borrowed
the following information:

************************************************** ********
It is true that the Genesis flood account shares many striking
similarities with the Babylonian Gilgamesh epic - and with the
Babylonian Atrahasis epic, for that matter. In fact, literally hundreds
of flood traditions have been preserved all over the world, with
traditions abounding in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, as well as
both of the Americas, and the Genesis account shares similarities with
most of them. Of the flood traditions which have survived up to the
present time, about 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell
of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the
human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the
coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and
70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and
animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions
mention birds being sent out from the boat.
Since every culture would have descended directly from the flood’s
survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and
universal, having been passed down from generation to generation.
Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Many of these
traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative
isolation of the cultures, the length of time that has elapsed since
the flood, and the human tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and distort
stories over time. The Babylonian and biblical accounts of the flood
appear to represent different retellings of an essentially identical
flood tradition.
************************************************** ********

Since I'm new to this discussion site, I realize that this info may be
a rerun for you guys, so forgive me if it is

RED DAVE · 04-06-2007, 05:24 PM

From Dave Reed:

Quote:

Yes, this date of 4500 years back does present a problem. No doubt it came from the "young earth" advocates. If the earth is 6000 years old, then the flood would have to be < 6000 years ago. I do happen to believe in the universal flood, but I would have a difficult time
dating it, to my own satisfaction.

Welcome aboard.

Now that that's done, with all due respect, it's not a matter of your satisfaction or mine, but according to some verifiable information, which you haven't provided.

From Dave Reed:

Quote:

I believe I have heard somewhere that the civilization which produced the Sphynx, thought to be the oldest man made "structure", was very different than the culture which produced the Egyptian pyramids, 1000s of years later.

You heard wrong. The same culture that produced the Sphinx produced the pyramids and all the rest of the stuff: mummies and all that.

From Dave Reed:

Quote:

If you're looking for a "gap", this could be it.

Sorry Dave: No gap.

From Dave Reed:

Quote:

Something interesting about the account
of the flood, is that it's one of the few Biblically recorded events,
which has HUGE support from many other cultures as well. I've borrowed
the following information:

************************************************** ********
It is true that the Genesis flood account shares many striking
similarities with the Babylonian Gilgamesh epic - and with the
Babylonian Atrahasis epic, for that matter. In fact, literally hundreds
of flood traditions have been preserved all over the world, with
traditions abounding in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, as well as
both of the Americas, and the Genesis account shares similarities with
most of them. Of the flood traditions which have survived up to the
present time, about 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell
of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the
human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the
coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and
70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and
animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions
mention birds being sent out from the boat.

Since every culture would have descended directly from the flood’s
survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and
universal, having been passed down from generation to generation.
Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Many of these
traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative
isolation of the cultures, the length of time that has elapsed since
the flood, and the human tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and distort
stories over time. The Babylonian and biblical accounts of the flood
appear to represent different retellings of an essentially identical
flood tradition.
************************************************** ********

Source of all this please.

From Dave Reed:

Quote:

Since I'm new to this discussion site, I realize that this info may be a rerun for you guys, so forgive me if it is

it is: it's a ragbag collection. Once you source the data, we'll show you.

RED DAVE

Dave Reed · 04-07-2007, 08:00 PM

Okay, I guess I would have to begin with the easiest
item to produce reasonable evidence. The idea of many
cultures, with a similar story of a universal flood.
Remember that I cannot date it, as some others try
to do. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened a
million years ago. So don't assume any dates when
looking at other accounts. Needless to say, if you
already have decided it never happened, then no
evidence of any kind will convince you otherwise. All
I'm presenting here is that if it never happened at
all, why the many different accounts from all over.
It's not your typical "normal" event, like a volcanic
eruption, or earthquake or hurricane. Using the
"reasonable person" litmus test, would an average guy,
when asked about cataclysiums that could happen, even
consider this possibility? And yet it's substantiated
by many different cultures. How can this be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge

http://www.crystalinks.com/floodstories5.html

http://www.theology.edu/prehist2.htm (Sumerian account)

Weltall · 04-07-2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Needless to say, if you
already have decided it never happened, then no
evidence of any kind will convince you otherwise.

This is your problem, not ours. You have no evidence to produce and all the evidence we have goes against the idea of a flood. Redating the flood to before the time of homo sapiens does nothing to solve the problem; the evidence isn't there no matter when you're trying to place it.

Quote:

All
I'm presenting here is that if it never happened at
all, why the many different accounts from all over.

Because a lot of places in the world experience seasonal floods (Egypt, Sumer, China) and sometimes they get really big nasty ones. It doesn't take a first-rate intelligence to make the conclusion that when shopping for impressive myths, they might take their seasonal floods and posit a really big one Way Back When as part of their origin mythos.

Quote:

It's not your typical "normal" event, like a volcanic
eruption, or earthquake or hurricane.

Actually, it's moreso than any of those. Floods occurred regularly, brush up on your history of the regions I mentioned.

Quote:

Using the
"reasonable person" litmus test, would an average guy,
when asked about cataclysiums that could happen, even
consider this possibility?

The 'reasonable man' standard isn't used scientifically for reasons that should be obvious. Nonetheless, the answer to your question is 'yes'.

Quote:

And yet it's substantiated
by many different cultures. How can this be?

If you accept that as evidence, you should also accept the existence of a flat earth since a lot of ancient sources seem to describe the earth in those terms. Funny how you don't do that.

Dave Reed · 04-07-2007, 08:45 PM

In case you hadn't noticed, we are talking about something
a bit larger than a river overflow. I'm aware that most
people know of "non universal" floods. You did verify one
point I made. There is no way you could have discovered and
read my new post, viewed the links, and created the reply
in 17 minutes. If you had read the URLs, you would have
possibly had some comment. So I guess you didn't, probably
because you aren't interested in anything which may support
my point. The flat earth business, obviously makes no real
point, but it does remind me of a cute saying we had back
in grade school - "if the earth was flat, you'd be the first
one to fall off"

Weltall · 04-07-2007, 08:50 PM

I didn't need to read your links because I've seen them a million frigging times already. I think you haven't read your links or you might have noticed things like this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Some geologists believe that quite dramatic, greater than normal flooding of rivers in the distant past might have influenced the myths. One of the latest, and quite controversial, theories of this type is the Ryan-Pitman Theory, which argues for a catastrophic deluge about 5600 BC from the Mediterranean Sea into the Black Sea. Many other prehistoric geologic events, including tsunamis, have also been advanced as possible foundations for these myths.

and this

Quote:

Instead of trying to find cataclysmic real life floods to explain these stories, some historians point out that early civilized cultures lived in the fertile flood plains along river basins such as the Nile in Egypt and the Tigris-Euphrates river basin of Mesopotamia (in present day Iraq). It is not unusual that such peoples would have deep memories of floods and have developed mythologies surrounding floods to explain and cope with an integral part of their lives. To these ancient cultures, a flood that covered their known world would likely be considered local flooding by First World standards instead of literally the entire planet.

Emphasis mine. Ignoring the fact that there is no actual evidence of a global flood isn't going to change the fact that there isn't any.

Dave Reed · 04-07-2007, 09:04 PM

I'm aware of the Black Sea creation theory, which has
pretty solid support. If you use the idea that localized
equals or becomes world wide, then there should also be
accounts of a world wide fire, which burned everything,
or volcano which wiped out the earth, or pestilence, or
earthquake, or wind etc. I haven't really researched
this, but it could support either pro or con, depending
on the findings.

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04-05-2007, 09:46 PM	#2
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	Still waiting for a response from praxeus. Hope springs eternal within the human breast. RED DAVE

04-06-2007, 02:55 PM	#4
Dave Reed Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ventura, Calif. USA Posts: 78	Yes, this date of 4500 years back does present a problem. No doubt it came from the "young earth" advocates. If the earth is 6000 years old, then the flood would have to be < 6000 years ago. I do happen to believe in the universal flood, but I would have a difficult time dating it, to my own satisfaction. I believe I have heard somewhere that the civilization which produced the Sphynx, thought to be the oldest man made "structure", was very different than the culture which produced the Egyptian pyramids, 1000s of years later. If you're looking for a "gap", this could be it. Something interesting about the account of the flood, is that it's one of the few Biblically recorded events, which has HUGE support from many other cultures as well. I've borrowed the following information: ************************************************ **** It is true that the Genesis flood account shares many striking similarities with the Babylonian Gilgamesh epic - and with the Babylonian Atrahasis epic, for that matter. In fact, literally hundreds of flood traditions have been preserved all over the world, with traditions abounding in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, as well as both of the Americas, and the Genesis account shares similarities with most of them. Of the flood traditions which have survived up to the present time, about 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and 70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions mention birds being sent out from the boat. Since every culture would have descended directly from the flood’s survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and universal, having been passed down from generation to generation. Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Many of these traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative isolation of the cultures, the length of time that has elapsed since the flood, and the human tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and distort stories over time. The Babylonian and biblical accounts of the flood appear to represent different retellings of an essentially identical flood tradition. ********************************************** ****** Since I'm new to this discussion site, I realize that this info may be a rerun for you guys, so forgive me if it is

04-07-2007, 08:00 PM	#6
Dave Reed Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ventura, Calif. USA Posts: 78	Okay, I guess I would have to begin with the easiest item to produce reasonable evidence. The idea of many cultures, with a similar story of a universal flood. Remember that I cannot date it, as some others try to do. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened a million years ago. So don't assume any dates when looking at other accounts. Needless to say, if you already have decided it never happened, then no evidence of any kind will convince you otherwise. All I'm presenting here is that if it never happened at all, why the many different accounts from all over. It's not your typical "normal" event, like a volcanic eruption, or earthquake or hurricane. Using the "reasonable person" litmus test, would an average guy, when asked about cataclysiums that could happen, even consider this possibility? And yet it's substantiated by many different cultures. How can this be? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge http://www.crystalinks.com/floodstories5.html http://www.theology.edu/prehist2.htm (Sumerian account)

04-07-2007, 08:45 PM	#8
Dave Reed Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ventura, Calif. USA Posts: 78	In case you hadn't noticed, we are talking about something a bit larger than a river overflow. I'm aware that most people know of "non universal" floods. You did verify one point I made. There is no way you could have discovered and read my new post, viewed the links, and created the reply in 17 minutes. If you had read the URLs, you would have possibly had some comment. So I guess you didn't, probably because you aren't interested in anything which may support my point. The flat earth business, obviously makes no real point, but it does remind me of a cute saying we had back in grade school - "if the earth was flat, you'd be the first one to fall off"

04-07-2007, 09:04 PM	#10
Dave Reed Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ventura, Calif. USA Posts: 78	I'm aware of the Black Sea creation theory, which has pretty solid support. If you use the idea that localized equals or becomes world wide, then there should also be accounts of a world wide fire, which burned everything, or volcano which wiped out the earth, or pestilence, or earthquake, or wind etc. I haven't really researched this, but it could support either pro or con, depending on the findings.

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