Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 04-12-2004, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MortalWombat

It is always wrong to use hyperbole. In fact, anyone who uses hyperbole should be locked up and have the key thrown away.

Even if they only use the tiniest imaginable bit of hyperbole?

funinspace · 04-12-2004, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I'll get the ball rolling. I'm not a literalist Christian, and this seems to drive literalist atheists wild.

So here goes:
.
.
.
No. Jesus's words need to be understood in the cultural setting in which they were uttered. This is typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period. You are being too literal.
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.
.
Please note: if you want to ask "How do we know what is supposed to be literal and what is supposed to be metaphor?", my answer is "Study the Bible in the context of the authors and the culture they lived in". This will hopefully save some time. Thank you.

Just curious. Does your view of the Bible include not considering the Bible as the final word on morality? In other words, does one have to consider the cultural context for womens issues, sexual orientation, slavery, et.al. while reading the NT?

DK

Cynthia of Syracuse · 04-13-2004, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrie

Can you or should you believe what Jesus and the apostles said?

- QUESTION: So you only need a tiny bit of faith, and if you have just a tiny bit of faith you can do anything. It is true that people with faith can do amazing things, like voodoo priests can walk on hot coals because they believe they can, but could they literally move a mountain or flap their arms and fly like a bird with just a little bit of faith? And whenever you have had a little bit of faith, have your prayers always been answered?

nitpick mode on

Vodun priests can't walk across coals because they believe they can. Vodun priests (and conjurors, and talk-show hosts, and schoolteachers, and even you and I) can walk across hot coals because of the laws of physics.

nitpick mode off

nermal · 04-13-2004, 08:03 AM

I'm not as much of a bible expert as others here, so I won't expound on biblical trivia, although the mustard seed comments struck me as very odd also.
I would pose a few simple questions:
1) Even if, for the sake of argument, we agree that the universe was created, how does that advance the Christian argument at all? Why should it be assumed Yahweh did the creating?

2) If Christianity is the correct religion, why do Christian children generally grow up to be Christian, Hindu children generally grow up to be Hindu, Muslim children generally grow up to be Muslim etc.? If Christianity were true, and God/Christ were legitimately interested in the adulation of men, why don't we have an inherent predisposition to Christianity?

3) Why Israel--a petty burg in the sticks? Why not more populated areas like China and India? Don't these people count for anything? For that matter, why not Rome?

4) If Christianity/Judeaism is true, why does it read so startlingly like a local people trying to espouse their own significance in the defiance of their insignificance, rather than a world religion?

Ed

nermal · 04-13-2004, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Jesus was wrong, or He already returned in 70 CE and everyone missed it, as preterists believe. I lean towards preterism myself.

This thinking doesn't give him much credit, does it? He talked about what a big deal it would be, then it happens, and nobody notices.
The preterist position kind of implies that Yahweh is just one god of many, the Hebrew God; and He didn't have much influence over the rest of humanity, but left them to their own gods.

One would think the Creator of the Universe and All Things In It could make a better entrance, no?

Ed

Wayne Delia · 04-13-2004, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagkarma

The sections about the mustard seed that have always amazed me are the remarks in Matt.13.31 seq which run "....Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, the that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof..."

In real life, mustard is a wimpy little plant that would scarcely hold up a sparrow. Most likely all the 'mustard' verses are translation errors.

Additionally, mustard seeds are indeed pretty small, but not nearly as small as orchid seeds, which are uniformly smaller than mustard seeds. Jesus missed that distinction in both Matthew and Mark.

WMD

Wayne Delia · 04-13-2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Jesus was wrong, or He already returned in 70 CE and everyone missed it, as preterists believe. I lean towards preterism myself.

"What about the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!" (Marvin the Martian, in a Bugs Bunny cartoon)

WMD

Wayne Delia · 04-13-2004, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MortalWombat

It is always wrong to use hyperbole. In fact, anyone who uses hyperbole should be locked up and have the key thrown away.

:notworthy

"If I've told you once, I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate!"

WMD

Carrie · 04-13-2004, 12:55 PM

Might be wrong about the mustard plant being puny. Since I have all kinds of time to kill, I looked it up, and the mustard plant can grow to like 6-15 feet, and it looks tree like. It's more like a big shrub, but it could be the biggest plant in a garden. I suppose it could handle 1 nest maybe.

Angrillori · 04-13-2004, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nermal

3) Why Israel--a petty burg in the sticks? Why not more populated areas like China and India? Don't these people count for anything? For that matter, why not Rome?

ROFL. My wife and I had a great discussion of this. What a shitty God to give his chosen people Israel. Why not like Hawaii? Or Fiji? The Bahamas?

If some all powerful God calls me his chosen people, he better do a sight better than the middle east for my chosen land!

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04-13-2004, 08:03 AM	#14
nermal Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,969	I'm not as much of a bible expert as others here, so I won't expound on biblical trivia, although the mustard seed comments struck me as very odd also. I would pose a few simple questions: 1) Even if, for the sake of argument, we agree that the universe was created, how does that advance the Christian argument at all? Why should it be assumed Yahweh did the creating? 2) If Christianity is the correct religion, why do Christian children generally grow up to be Christian, Hindu children generally grow up to be Hindu, Muslim children generally grow up to be Muslim etc.? If Christianity were true, and God/Christ were legitimately interested in the adulation of men, why don't we have an inherent predisposition to Christianity? 3) Why Israel--a petty burg in the sticks? Why not more populated areas like China and India? Don't these people count for anything? For that matter, why not Rome? 4) If Christianity/Judeaism is true, why does it read so startlingly like a local people trying to espouse their own significance in the defiance of their insignificance, rather than a world religion? Ed

04-13-2004, 12:55 PM	#19
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	Might be wrong about the mustard plant being puny. Since I have all kinds of time to kill, I looked it up, and the mustard plant can grow to like 6-15 feet, and it looks tree like. It's more like a big shrub, but it could be the biggest plant in a garden. I suppose it could handle 1 nest maybe.

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