Carrie

Can you or should you believe what Jesus and the apostles said?


Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you....Which of you, if your son asks for bread will give him a fish?�
- QUESTION: When you ask God for something, does he always give it to you? Why hasn’t God answered the prayers of the thousands of starving children who die every day who prayed for food but didn’t get bread or fish?


Matthew 17:20 “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.�
- QUESTION: So you only need a tiny bit of faith, and if you have just a tiny bit of faith you can do anything. It is true that people with faith can do amazing things, like voodoo priests can walk on hot coals because they believe they can, but could they literally move a mountain or flap their arms and fly like a bird with just a little bit of faith? And whenever you have had a little bit of faith, have your prayers always been answered?


Matt 18:19 “If two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.�
- QUESTION: So if you and a friend prayed for the war in Iraq to end tomorrow and for all the terrorists to like us, would it happen? If you and a friend prayed for someone to stop smoking right away, would they stop? If you and a friend prayed that you would become a fearless evangelist today, would it happen? Wouldn’t God be interfering with people’s free will to make their own decisions?


Revelation 22:20 Jesus said, “Behold, I am coming soon!�
- QUESTION: It’s been over 2000 years. Is that soon?


John 14:12 “Anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name...You may ask for anything in my name, and I will do it.�
- QUESTION: Have you ever done greater things than Jesus? Has Jesus done whatever you have asked in his name?


1 John 2:27 was written to Christians in general. It says, “The anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. His anointing teaches you about all things.�
- QUESTION: After you were saved, did you feel like you knew it all and didn’t need to be taught any further? Did his anointing teach you about all things, or are you still unsure about some stuff? And did the church tell you that you still needed to be taught, and continue to teach you?


Mark 16:17 Jesus said, “These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; when they drink deadly poison it will not hurt them at all, they will place their hands on sick people and they will get well.�
- QUESTION: You believe, but can you do these things? Some churches who believe this to be true actually have their members handle poisonous snakes and believe they won’t get hurt if they are bitten. Could this be a dangerous and unwise scripture to have in the Bible because people might actually go and drink poison believing they will be fine? Do you think most Christians believe this scripture to be true? If so, why don’t they try to speak in tongues like the Pentecostals? Do you think that when the Bible came these types of things were supposed to end? Or do most Christians just say that because they know they can’t do these things, so they came up with a handy explanation to excuse this scripture away?


Matthew 6:18 “When you fast, don’t make it obvious that you are fasting. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.�
- QUESTION: Has God rewarded you after you have fasted? Has fasting made God answer your prayers more? Why wouldn’t just regular prayer be enough when he said all you need is to ask and have a little faith? If fasting brings reward, why don’t you fast more often?


Matthew 24. Verse 14 and 29-34 “This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come� ..... “The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it’s light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other....I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.�
- QUESTION: Did this stuff happen in the generation of the Apostles?


Romans 11:26 “I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not become conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.....As far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.�
- QUESTION: Do you think all the Jews will be saved in the end because God’s call is irrevocable?


Romans 8:29 and 9:15 Paul said, “Those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified.� God said, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.� Then Paul said, “It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.....God hardens whom he wants to
harden. One of you will say to me, ‘Then why does God still blame us?’ But who are you to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath, prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?
- QUESTION: Should you believe that your non-Christian friend is predestined by God to be an object of wrath prepared for destruction, so that you who were prepared in advance to be an object of mercy will know the riches of his glory?

jagkarma

No offense, but you seem to have miscopied Matthew a bit. The sense of those verses depend on " If his son asks bread, will he give him a stone?" That is, totally refuse his request, not switch from bread to fish.

The sections about the mustard seed that have always amazed me are the remarks in Matt.13.31 seq which run "....Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, the that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof..."

In real life, mustard is a wimpy little plant that would scarcely hold up a sparrow. Most likely all the 'mustard' verses are translation errors.

That bit in Mark that inspires snakehandling and other curious practices doesn't exist in the earliest manuscripts and is likely an interpolation, or so I have read somewhere. Loisy?

Best question I can think of for Christians would be "do you agree with live and let live?"

GakuseiDon

I'll get the ball rolling. I'm not a literalist Christian, and this seems to drive literalist atheists wild. So here goes:
Misinterpretation, as explained in the previous post.

No. Jesus's words need to be understood in the cultural setting in which they were uttered. This is typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period. You are being too literal.


Typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period. You are being too literal.

Jesus was wrong, or He already returned in 70 CE and everyone missed it, as preterists believe. I lean towards preterism myself.

Typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period. You are being too literal.


Possibly misinterpretation. I think the author is referring that the anointing will safeguard the anointed against false teachings.


Typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period, though probably not without symbolism that is no longer apparent. You are being too literal.

Seems pretty clear to me. Jesus was addressing practises used at the time.

I'm divided on this one. Possibly "this generation" refers to the generation in which the signs begin, though I'm not sure. But it fits preterism quite well.

Yes.

No.

Please note: if you want to ask "How do we know what is supposed to be literal and what is supposed to be metaphor?", my answer is "Study the Bible in the context of the authors and the culture they lived in". This will hopefully save some time. Thank you.

Steven Carr

What actually is hyperbole?

If I said that all Christians were fanatical , witch-burning fundamentalists would that be hyperbole?

Is it ever wrong to use hyperbole?

If Jesus uses hyperbole to say that God would grant anything believers prayed for, would he be wrong to do so?

Gunbuster

Oh this has been a bone of contention with me and my usual theist sparing partner. I swear this guy could get the short story award. He says that the mountain to which is referred to, is the Jerusalam temple and that Jesus was prophecising its downfall.

Yeah, I know what you're thinking and I think the same, but thats how some theists rationalise it.

Oh and GakuseiDon, where do we stop being "too literal" and start blindly believing the trollop put to us from the "good" book?

Kilgore Trout

Jesus walks on water.

Typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period. He probably stepped in a mud puddle.

jesus feeds 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish.

Typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period. It was closer to 10 people. Either that or the fish were great white sharks.

jesus was crucified.

Typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period. The Romans just gave him a disapproving glare.



Actually, the real answer to the question of what is literal and what is metaphor is: If jesus says to do something, and christians don't want to do it, or it is impossible to do it, then christians call it a metaphor.

Steven Carr

I think this is what is meant by 'sola scriptura'.

Of course, Paul would be astonished at the idea that we should study the Bible in the context of the authors and the culture they lived in.

1 Corinthians 9
9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.

Of course, if Paul had studied Dueteronomy 25 in the context of the authors and the culture they lived in, he would realised that when God was talking about oxen, oxen were the things he was talking about.

Carrie

Well, I wanted to know what some Christians think, so from what I gather, some take these passages more literally, and others less so.

They might not think they can get everything they ask for in prayer, but they do think prayer increases the odds of their wishes being granted. And many Christians think that if they have enough faith (and its according to God's will) they really can do anything. My friend Ebony was totally convinced that because she had enough faith, her prayer that she would get into a certain college was answered at the last minute. I of course don't think prayer makes any difference at all.

As for 2 Christians praying together, they do think this increases the power of their prayers, because the 700 club always talks about their thousands of members praying about the same thing, and how it resulted in the prayer being answered. So Christians water things down by saying, "Well God won't
answer ALL of your prayers, but he'll answer a lot of them." Is that what Jesus was trying to say? Maybe he should have just come out and say what he meant. That is, if he were a real guy.

About Jesus coming back "soon" he obviously did not, and the whole thing about Jesus coming back in the year 70 is bogus. Matthew 24 speaks of the end of the world that would come after the war, when God would gather the elect from the four winds. It is clearly speaking of the end of the world, but Christians don't like to admit that because it would mean Jesus was wrong. If a Christian can admit Jesus was wrong, good for them.

I'm pretty sure some of this stuff WAS meant to be literal. Like not needing anyone to teach you because the Holy Spirit would guide you. That's what Paul believed. And it seems like we're supposed to take the one about being able to speak in tongues etc, because in Acts the believers do such things.

I do think that the Gospel story was written as a symbolic tale, and that Jesus never existed as a real person, but of course most Christians don't believe that. They say some parts are symbolism and others are not. I'd like to know just what the hell Jesus meant then in all his symbolic teachings. What was he really trying to say when he said, "I will do anything you ask in my name"?

And as for Paul, he clearly believed in predestination. So I hate it when Christians take the words of Paul to be the words of God, because then they have to try to excuse away what Paul said and they say he didn't REALLY mean predestination. But he did, and it's just Paul's oppinion, not God's word.

Vinnie

Typical hyperbole/rhetoric of the period

As Carr pointed out, you ar using this phrase a little too generously. Documenting this ancient practice in extra-biblical literture would be nice. Also, a methodology for ditinguuishing as well.

Since it is quite true that many of us doi not see a major difference between feeding 5000 with a few morsels and throwing a mountain in the sea. I doubt Mark took the former non-literally. Of course the latter it is very posisble and reasonable he was using the largest object to contrast with the power of faith to make the comparison more explicit but a nmethodology would be nice. Its required since the Biblical authors believed Jesus did things and that others could do things we might mistakenly think is hyperbole because they are astonishing unlikely//impossible.

Vinnie

MortalWombat

It is always wrong to use hyperbole. In fact, anyone who uses hyperbole should be locked up and have the key thrown away.