Steven Carr

On page 112-113, of Witherington's 'Conflict and Community in Corinth: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary on 1 and 2 Corinthians (or via: amazon.co.uk)'

Ben Witherington writes 'Verse 22 characterises Jews as those who seek miraculous signs. This should be compared to the requests made of Jesus. The reference is to a validating sign,not just a sign, but a miracle meant to demonstrate one's power.'

What sorts of signs? 3 hour darknesses when one dies, people being raised from the dead, walking on water, having Moses and Elijah returning to talk to you?

How could Paul chide Jews for demanding miraculous signs, if Christianity had been accompanied by miraculous signs?

Miraculous signs are the one thing the Gospels insist happened, yet they are singled out by Paul as something that non-believers demanded before accepting Christianity.

So why doesn't Witherington even bother to ask himself how there could have been all those miraculous signs, yet Paul writes as though only non-believers could think that Christainity be a religion that had miracles?

Can't Witherington see elephants in rooms?

Transient

When you are inside of a room you cannot look at the foundations - you have to step outside the building and make a mess, digging up the dirt, to get to the foundations of a building.
Almost all christians cannot be bothered doing that.
All christians that I know don't even discuss the subject let alone waste their time looking for themselves.
I sit here alone on the computer investigating the long cold trail that leads back into the mess that the rcc left us.
It is a waste of time too imho because any god that used "faith" and "belief" as the determining factors would be a complete monster unless he also personally interrelated with each human being - which he does not - most likely because there is no god.
To suggest that a god creator is obvious by looking at nature is totally ridiculous. For a start that god would have to be a monster to have created such a ghastly world - I have spent my entire life in the horticultural field and know exactly what nature is like.

Student of Sophia

Neither can skeptics, or they would know that the foundations of the 'miracle building' is psychic ability. Uh-oh, did I violate a taboo with the p-word? Shame on me! :Cheeky:

In other words, the sheep-goat effect.

You guys really ought to venture outside your narrow little area here once in a while so that you can begin to put 2 and 2 together.

Transient

Venture out?
I am 59 years old, have been married for 37 years to one wife, have 6 children, was a very keen christian for 30+ years, ran my own business for about 36 years etc etc.
You make me smile reading that
People can be so quick to judge with so little info.
Sometimes I wonder if it is worth bothering at all talking about religion as most people hold their religion above dispute.

Student of Sophia

My post wasn't directed at you personally, Transient. Lighten up.

Transient

If you had left of the "lighten up" I might have accepted your words, or maybe a "sorry bout that" might have worked too but those words are not often spoken these days it seems.
My other statements stand as they are.

To get back to the OP. I agree with your sentiments on the miracles. A lot of things about those so-called miracles don't add up but then why would they? The writers of those gospels and letters in the NT were not writing for future generations, they were only writing for the own generation - solving current problems, following instructions etc, not expecting us, 2000 years later, to be dissecting their every word.
If this character "Jesus" actually did so many great things in 3 years that the stories would fill all the libraries in the "world" and then more, then he would have had a much bigger following than he did and a much more diverse record of him would exist.
There is definately something fishy 'bout those miracle tales

jgoodguy

In modern times, I have observed an inflation of miracles where one Pentecostal or Charismatic church would experience a miracle only to have its surrounding churches experience more and better miracles. Miracles are easy to claim and difficult to refute and therefore one can see a lot of miracled occur in a short time. Given chaotic times, a oral tradition and competing Christian groups, the miracles attributed to Christ can be explained as social driven.

Transient

We only have to look at the modern day Benny Hinn to see how people are so easily led along by hype. He has been exposed as a fraud and at best his "miracles" are dodgy and not confirmed. Benny Hinn himself says that he can't be bothered following them up and providing the media with any evidence of the miracles.
It's such a sham and yet he still draws thousands of worshipers.
With Benny Hinn we can see him on tv and sort of evaluate his character a bit. With "Jesus" we have to rely on people who we don't even know and have no way of ever knowing them. Why the heck should anyone trust what is written by other people that they don't know.
That's what is so good about science - it's repeatability - it is built on repeatability so that excludes whacky claims by whacky people.
Religion is built on non-repeatability of claims - totally hopeless system - only maintained by people who want to control others.

aa5874

But, what makes some religions extremely dangerous is that when you reject their claims they declare that you are of the Devil and will burn in Hell for Eternity.

Such threats should be banned and such religions dismantled from civilised society.

Rejection of any scientific theory does not require threats of eternal damnation.

Transient

Agreed - and religions divide families and communities. Science does not as far as I am aware.
But I can understand why people are unable or unwilling to extract themselves from a religion because once you experience the security and social benefits of a religion it becomes like a drug. I still get withdrawal symptoms from time to time.
I am not sure if religions will ever be eradicated from this earth - most likely not. There are so many superstitious people - just gotta watch TV games shows like Deal or no Deal to see how many people think they can tell what number is hidden inside a case - it's amazing. I seem to be the opposite of superstitious.