Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-09-2009, 10:58 AM

This seems to be taking on a life of its own on the internets.

Ship of Fools, a satirical Christian site (but still definitely Christian and not a bunch of atheists) ran a poll of its readers to find the worst Bible verses (Chapter and Worse.)

Quote:

We've all got a favourite bit of the Bible. "The Lord is my shepherd..." is especially popular. And then there is "Love is patient, love is kind..." and "Judge not lest ye be judged..." These are verses which comfort, inspire and challenge.

But isn't it a shame the Bible isn't like that all the way through?

You don't need to be a purple-faced atheist to notice that the Bible is a pretty mixed book. For every hymn to the loveliness of love, there's a story about God squishing someone because they worshipped the wrong god. For every wise and helpful saying, there's an incomprehensible law. For every verse Martin Luther King proclaimed in the streets of Alabama, there's one that Fred Phelps shouts outside gay funerals.

. . .

Yes, it's God-breathed, but then so was Adam... and look what happened to him.

The poll is closed, and the final results are here, topped by St. Paul telling women to shut up in church.

Quote:

It's an unedifying list, but we think the Bible can survive bringing these shadowy verses into the spotlight. It's not the all-or-nothing book that fundamentalists (atheist and Christian) say that we must either accept wholesale or burn. We need a view of the Bible that is nuanced enough to treasure its comforts and challenges, its classic stories and groundbreaking ethical wisdom, while facing the plain fact that some of it is unacceptable.

The final list was picked up by the Telegraph and has spread to Boston.com via some Episcopalians.

There are the usual comments about translation errors and taking things out of context, etc. But get on that slippery slope. . .

Perhaps this is a good intro to Philip Davies latest essay, Are There Ethics in the Hebrew Bible? (Short answer: No.)

Quote:

I repeatedly hear advocates of religion asserting that it is religion that gives humans ethics that bestow value on human life. I have rarely heard anything so ridiculous in my life. So let’s look at ethics in the (Hebrew) Bible.

mountainman · 09-10-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Perhaps this is a good intro to Philip Davies latest essay, Are There Ethics in the Hebrew Bible? (Short answer: No.)

Quote:

I repeatedly hear advocates of religion asserting that it is religion that gives humans ethics that bestow value on human life. I have rarely heard anything so ridiculous in my life. So let’s look at ethics in the (Hebrew) Bible.

From Aristotle we have learnt that there are three modes
of persuasion in rhetoric - ethos, pathos and logos. We are
all very much aware there is zero or little logic in the bible,
and here is it quite clear that there is zero ethos.

That basically implies that the persuasiveness of the bible
is surely fair and square founded on pathos --- a direct
appeal to the emotions of the (uneducated) audience.

What a pathetic state of affairs. The authors of the NT
appear to have created a new and strange religion using
persuasion via pathos.

Quote:

.... Ethics is not one of religion’s gifts to humanity, and the Bible cannot serve a modern democracy as a moral guide—unless of course we decide ourselves, on or own ethical principles, which bits of it we will follow and which ones we will not. Come to think of it, though, isn’t this really what most of its believers actually do? So why not come clean and stop pretending that our Western culture is built on “biblical values”: for, thank god, it isn’t!

Susan2 · 09-10-2009, 06:43 PM

For all their (intellectuals) goings on about ethos and logic, the poor intuitively know, they are about to get screwed. Is it any wonder than that pathos works?

One such intellectual was known to have said “if there is no God one should be created”, which begs the question, if there is no heaven for the poor, should hell be created for the intellectual?

Is it possible than that it is the intellectual himself who has created hell, in that he was the one who also created God, and if so, and finding himself in hell, what is his complaint?

jakejonesiv · 09-11-2009, 07:16 AM

The real worst Bible verses for Christians is about getting slapped around (turn the other cheek) and giving all their stuff away. I have asked and they never do it. :devil1:

I would never take advantage of someone weak minded enough to agree to these requests, but it demonstates what a lot of malarkey this Jesus stuff is.

Jake

Petergdi · 09-11-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

The real worst Bible verses for Christians is about getting slapped around (turn the other cheek) and giving all their stuff away. I have asked and they never do it. :devil1:

I would never take advantage of someone weak minded enough to agree to these requests, but it demonstates what a lot of malarkey this Jesus stuff is.

Jake

I don't know about giving all their stuff away, but getting beaten up without resisting is a lot more common than you suggest.

Peter.

jakejonesiv · 09-11-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

The real worst Bible verses for Christians is about getting slapped around (turn the other cheek) and giving all their stuff away. I have asked and they never do it. :devil1:

I would never take advantage of someone weak minded enough to agree to these requests, but it demonstates what a lot of malarkey this Jesus stuff is.

Jake

I don't know about giving all their stuff away, but getting beaten up without resisting is a lot more common than you suggest.

Peter.

Sure, if the alternative is worse than the beating. To make it a rule of life is something else entirely.

Matthew Chapter 5 NAB
³⁹ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.
⁴⁰ If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well.
⁴¹ Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles.
⁴² Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.

My point remains; this should be among the worst verses for Christians.

Petergdi · 09-12-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

I don't know about giving all their stuff away, but getting beaten up without resisting is a lot more common than you suggest.

Peter.

Sure, if the alternative is worse than the beating. To make it a rule of life is something else entirely.

There are many people who do make it a rule of life, and not all of them are Christians (in the sense of regarding themselves as being of the Christian religion) though they may all be influenced by the words of Jesus.

Peter.

Deus Ex · 09-12-2009, 08:49 AM

Joshua 10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

I find this to be repugnant.

Susan2 · 09-12-2009, 09:51 AM

I think that the worse verses are to teach people that their bodies are not their own. This begins with Genesis, when Adam claims Eve as bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. That is ownership, irregardless of any supposed metaphor, allegory, etc., that it is alleged to be otherwise.

That idea of ownership of another's body is seen throughout the Torah/OT, and culminates with Paul's agreement, and violent reinforcement. 1 Corithians 6 & 7, and Hebrews 12. Perhaps other places as well.

If there is an original sin, and the worst sin that is it, imo.

MortalWombat · 09-12-2009, 04:31 PM

You probably won't see too many conservative American Christians being a fan of the following verses these days:

Romans 13

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

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09-10-2009, 06:43 PM	#3
Susan2 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: EARTH Posts: 463	For all their (intellectuals) goings on about ethos and logic, the poor intuitively know, they are about to get screwed. Is it any wonder than that pathos works? One such intellectual was known to have said “if there is no God one should be created”, which begs the question, if there is no heaven for the poor, should hell be created for the intellectual? Is it possible than that it is the intellectual himself who has created hell, in that he was the one who also created God, and if so, and finding himself in hell, what is his complaint?

09-11-2009, 07:16 AM	#4
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	The real worst Bible verses for Christians is about getting slapped around (turn the other cheek) and giving all their stuff away. I have asked and they never do it. :devil1: I would never take advantage of someone weak minded enough to agree to these requests, but it demonstates what a lot of malarkey this Jesus stuff is. Jake

09-12-2009, 08:49 AM	#8
Deus Ex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,348	Joshua 10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. I find this to be repugnant.

09-12-2009, 09:51 AM	#9
Susan2 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: EARTH Posts: 463	I think that the worse verses are to teach people that their bodies are not their own. This begins with Genesis, when Adam claims Eve as bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. That is ownership, irregardless of any supposed metaphor, allegory, etc., that it is alleged to be otherwise. That idea of ownership of another's body is seen throughout the Torah/OT, and culminates with Paul's agreement, and violent reinforcement. 1 Corithians 6 & 7, and Hebrews 12. Perhaps other places as well. If there is an original sin, and the worst sin that is it, imo.

09-12-2009, 04:31 PM	#10
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	You probably won't see too many conservative American Christians being a fan of the following verses these days: Romans 13 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

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