sharon45

John 12:27-28

27 "Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.

28 Father, glorify your name!"

Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again."

This passage always causes me to laugh out loud.

Steven Avery

Thanks Sharon, for bringing it up. Tis a beautiful and deep section.

John 12:27-30
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say?
Father, save me from this hour:
but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Father, glorify thy name.
Then came there a voice from heaven,
saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
The people therefore, that stood by,
and heard it, said that it thundered:
others said, An angel spake to him.
Jesus answered and said,
This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

And of the three Bat Kol in the Gospels, it is the one often missed.
Since the other two are the baptism of Jesus and the Transfiguration.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

sharon45

You are very welcome. It may not be beautiful though, but it sure is deep, for one needs to wear waders.

It's interesting that a Bat Kol can be heard by a righteous person or by a wicked person. Jesus would easily fit into the latter.

CaliNORML

Thank survival instinct, and genetic variation our species seeks, it can do mighty great things. Did you know you can "smell" a man with complimentary immunities for your offspring? Or be tempted to cheat on your mate like song birds for a quicky with the neighbor for better genes? Ya can, just by the way a man smells, a woman knows. Scientific fact, Glorious. PERFECTION, made the T-Rex and us all the same, yet we are different.

Glorify it again, I can still have this life, but not on the scale it kills me, could I believe I could have it in such a way, no one would even be hurt again 4000 years from now if that time did come?

We humans are still so vain that we think this could never rise again? See that new mathmatical formula "Fingerprint of GOD" Infinite designs, oooo how vain we are. The T- Rex was not granted the ability we now have, intelligence. Will we use it? "God" only knows.

We can live like the leaf cutter ants, a peacefull agricultural based society since the Dinosaurs left, they have lived side by side, in fact it is very similar to a human agricultural system. PERFECT.

Each are perfect, but one must come before the other. The stepstool, I have to first develop a larger brain, to use it.

KMS

JP2

Sorry if this is off-topic, but can someone explain to me how a dialogue between Jesus and God in this way (and in other cases, such as the famous lamentation in Matthew 27:46) fits in with the trinitarian concept? If Jesus and God are just two manifestations of the same being, why does Jesus converse with God and refer to him as a seperate entity? Surely dialogue such as this would indicate that Jesus, at the time the Gospels were written, was considered to be a holy man (that is, a man fused with the holy spirit) rather than God incarnate?

(There's also Mark 1:10 which seems to indicate that Jesus wasn't even born with the holy spirit but that it came to him when he was baptised?)

Helpmabob

Hi JP2 - He likely did not need to do it either for Himself or the Father, but as an illustration to us.

CaliNORML

[46] Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?: Jesus cries out in the words of Psalm 22:2, a psalm of lament that is the Old Testament passage most frequently drawn upon in this narrative. In Mark the verse is cited entirely in Aramaic, which Matthew partially retains but changes the invocation of God to the Hebrew Eli, possibly because that is more easily related to the statement of the following verse about Jesus' calling for Elijah.

Personaly, I can see this as Jesus staring down at us and waiting for us to save him, and in effect save us all. His "Father" had promised him that he put inside men's heads the higher thoughts, compassion, empathy, and guilt.

When no one came forward with any of these to stop it, in a center part of this story it is said Jesus needed only 2 people to stand up for him, not 1 did.

Why have you forsaken me on this cross when you said that they had this inside them Father? You created them, then why did compassion not work in them? How can they watch a human suffer like this and not say anything?

No compassion was shown to him, yet it is in all of us to be able to give compassion, it just was forsaken and withheld from "God's Son" by us at the time.

KMS

Steven Avery

I understand that this is the Talmudic understanding.
Are there examples in Tanach ?

sharon45

One of the reasons why I find this passage so amusing is because of the truly pathetic spectacle this really is.

There is no real mention of god here or any real evidence of such, only a voice. In fact there is much more evidence that it is instead a false god or evil spirit just as jesus is also a false prophet.

From out of Deuteronomy 13 and 18:20-22, this jesus and voice are only stumbling blocks provided to test the Jewish people's resolve.

sharon45

Of course since 12:30 already declares this.