mountainman

Please pay attention Mr Gibson.

Asclepius is a figure from a chronology comparable
to that of the god Apollo, since legend has it, that
the legendary greek god of medicine, for the thousand
year period 500BCE to 500 CE -- and thus inherited
into the Roman civilisation -- was the Healer Asclepius,
the son of Apollo.

In this guise he was "carried" by the Pythaorean lineage
of physicians including Hippocrates, and others.

Temples, shrines and healing centers were constructed
to this Asclepius throughout the Roman empire, and
there is abundant archaeological and literary evidence
for this. Please refer to this page:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essene..._Asclepius.htm

The people who staffed (in some custodial manner) these
temples (including gymnasia and libraries) were "trained
in the manner of healing". Thousands flocked to these
"Healing temples" and the votive offerings of people who
had received various cures are remnant even today from
the period > 400 BCE, reported by commentators 200 BCE.

The name of these temple attendant was "therapeutae".
The name of the god of the temple was Asclepius.
There were obviously graduations of administrative
service in the Asclepia, various degrees in its priesthood.

One core aspect of these degrees was asceticism.
To varying degrees, this picture emerges.

Now that we have sorted out that it was the theraputae,
the temple attendants and priesthood of Asclepius who
were the ascetics in the chronology of interest (0-300)
-- irrespective of the asceticism of the legend Asclepius.

If you want to get you bearings in ancient history in this
matter perhaps a good starting point is the second century CE.

Here are some names: Pedanius Dioscorides, Aulus Cornelius
Celsus, Rufus of Ephesus, Soranus of Ephesus and of course
Galen. Galen is a good example, He was Marcus Arurelius'
personal physician, and got military exemption on the basis
of his role within the therapeutae of Asclepius.

See "Description of Greece" by Pausanias, Greek traveller and
geographer of the 2nd century CE., who lived in the times of
Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius. He describes
ancient Greece from firsthand observations, and is a crucial
link between classical literature and modern archaeology.
(notably Biblical History does not imprive its position with
this author, although he mentions Asclepius 126 times.

Finally, see Sacred Tales by Aelius Aristides for explication
of the term ..... "We Asclepius therapeutae "

The modern medical and healing tradition Mr Gibson, as
horse hockey as it might appear to a Biblical Scholar such
as yourself, place the staff of the Healer Asclepius on their
emblems and letter head, not the snake staff of Moses.


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

Amaleq13

Surely the use of Greek language to write the story does nothing to change the clearly Jewish context of the references to fasting in the story nor does it magically create any support for your assumption/conclusion.

Another red herring? You are wrong again. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be relevant to the fact that the references to fasting in the story are clearly within the context of Jewish tradition.

You need the references to fasting to have some connection to asceticism but you've clearly got nothing to fulfill that need.

The fact that there is no evidence of any such influence in the story indicates your argument is specious. Your repeated attempts to introduce red herrings only serve to confirm that you have nothing substantive to support your assumption/conclusion.

No, it just requires one to read the stories and note that there is nothing to support your assumption/conclusion.

Your OP simply has no basis outside your own imagination. You have made this abundantly clear.

schilling.klaus

most scholars naively make that unwarranted circular reasoning

The Catholic gospel writers turned John into an ascetic guy.
John is seen as inferior to Jesus. This is in line with the Roman Catholic
church, being a political rather than a religious movement,
may at most tolerate a few ascetics, screened off the society
by desert and monastry walls, and under the bishop's discipline.
The Roman Catholic church got to write the canonical gospels,
thus Jesus is depicted in a way that supports their political ambitions.

Islam and Mandeans are hostile to ascetics,
but worship John B. as one of their most important prophets.

Those sects who actually see ascetism as a condition for perfection
deprecate and shun John the Baptist:
Ancient Docetae (NHC IX,III) and medieval Cathars.
Marcion, another ascetic sectarian, at best ignored John B.

Klaus Schilling

schilling.klaus

They were Roman powermongers.
Any appeal to Jewish traditions is feint and artificial,
and betrays scholarly naivity.
The Romans used the Old Testament in order to justify
their movement, but Jews were in their way and thus
had to be depicted as the villains who requested
the crucifixion of the Lord and got rightly punished
in subsequent wars, especially the defeat of bar Kochba.

Neopythagoreism is the essential component for the background
of the pre-canonical gospel story. As shown by G. Bolland,
the origin of the gospel is to be sought in Alexandrine Philosophy
of Religion. Not the Talmud, but Plutarch and Numenius are to be
consulted when it comes to understanding Christian origins.

Klaus Schilling

schilling.klaus

the jewish references are feint and inapproprriate,
and have no relevance for the understanding of the Gospel story.

Klaus Schilling

Amaleq13

Welcome to IIDB, Klaus. :wave:

I'm not sure you are actually following the discussion, though, since it is much more specific in focus than you seem to think. The Jewish context "of the references to fasting" is neither faint nor inappriopriate. :huh: Jesus' disciples are said not to fast like the Pharisees or the disciples of John.

Jeffrey Gibson

Actually, Asclepius as healer is attested earlier than that. He is mentioned in this capacity in the Ehoiai, in Hesiod, and in the Iliad. Note though that the Ehoiai and Hesiod deny his divine parentage. (Homer doesn't say anything about it)

You seemed to be extremely confused about what I am asking you to provide. I am not asking for texts that prove the existence of Asclepius or that Asclepius was a thought of or known to be or even worshiped as healer.

I am asking for texts that speak of Asclepius as an ascetic and especially an ascetic who grounded his ascetic practices in some sort of world renunciation.

I say there are no such texts. Please prove me wrong.

Do you mean this text from the Sacred Discourses?

κἀγὼ εἶπον ὅτι ὁ θεραπευτὴj εἴην ὁ τοῦ ασκληπιοῦ· τοσοῦτον γάρ μοι ἤρκεσεν εἰπεῖν περὶ ἐμαυτοῦ (27.15).

Would you please be kind enough to show me how this text shows that the priests of Asclepius were called "therepeutae", let alone that this text speaks of Asclepius as an ascetic?

Does it not instead explicate θερᾰπευτής --as does Inscr.Perg.8(3).71 -- in terms of those who are or have been sick, not the healers of the sick, i.e., those who came to the temple to be healed by Asclepius? Indeed, is the term θερᾰπευτής ever used in Greek literature as a term for priests?

If so, can you point to the specific place -- and provide the text of this place -- where it does?

Jeffrey

mountainman

Nice one Klaus.

Far from being an inspired religion, it is becoming
more and more evidence that a great deal of the
christian literature has been "cooked" using the
leaven of Pythagoras.

Possibly at or near Rome 312-324 CE


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

mountainman

"Jesus' disciples are said not to fast like ..."

ARE SAID?

The authors of the gospels are doing the saying.
We are doing the reading and comprehension.

But who are these author dudes?
When did they do their thing?
And why did they use Greek?

You are happy to sit there and argue until you are
black in the face that we are dealing with totally
unmistakeable Jewish references, and yet you are
unable to answer these above three questions.

Dont you think that your position
is somewhat logically precarious?


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

mountainman

Homer's Iliad mentions Asclepius
as a skillful physician, not as a
miracle worker.




Thank christ for that.


He is presented by the earliest stories as a physician.
We all know this. He is regarded by many as the traditional
originator of the planet's extant medical profession, via
Pythagoras, Hippocrates and Galen.

All ascetic practices are grounded in some sort
of worldly renunciation. We all know this.


Well I say that we have no non-ecclesiastical
historians extant writing under the despotic
and military supremacist rule of Constantine.
The years 312-337 is a black hole for the
artisans of the field of profane history.

Please prove me wrong.

I will trade my answer for yours Jeffrey.
Fair's fair.



Best wishes,



Pete Brown