Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-05-2012, 07:31 PM

In the following extracts from Athanasius's Discourses "Against the Arians" the champion of Nicaean orthodoxy Athanasius, plays the Antichrist card against Arius of Alexandria, and THRICE compares him to Sotades:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

Sotades (Greek: Σωτάδης; 3rd century BC) was an Ancient Greek poet.

Sotades was born in Maroneia, either the one in Thrace, or in Crete. He was the chief representative of the writers of obscene and even pederastic satirical poems, called Kinaidoi, composed in the Ionic dialect and in the "sotadic" metre named after him. The sotadic metre or sotadic verse, which has been classified by ancient and modern scholars as a form of ionic metre, is one that reads backwards and forwards the same, as “llewd did I live, and evil I did dwell.” These verses have also been called palindromic.

Extracts from Athanasius's Discourses "Against the Arians"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanasius

"And ever since [the Council of Nicaea] has Arius's error been reckoned for a heresy
more than ordinary, being known as Christ's foe, and harbinger of Antichrist."

(i) But neither can a Christian bear to hear this, nor can he consider the man who dared to say it sane in his understanding. For with them for Christ is Arius, as with the Manichees Manichus; and for Moses and the other saints they have made the discovery of one Sotades.

(ii) Arius, taking no grave pattern, and ignorant even of what is respectable, while he stole largely from other heresies, would be original in the ludicrous, with none but Sotades for his rival.

(iii) And so too, this counterfeit and Sotadean Arius, feigns to speak of God, introducing Scripture language, but is on all sides recognized as godless Arius, denying the Son, and reckoning Him among the creatures .

What was Athanasius's comparision of Arius to Sotades meant to achieve?

Toto · 02-05-2012, 08:09 PM

The Arian Controversy

Quote:

Nor was Arius idle. It must have been about this time that he composed the notorious poem, Thalia, in which he embodied his doctrines. He selected the metre of a pagan poet, Sotades of Crete, of whom we know nothing save that his verses had the reputation of being exceedingly licentious. Arius did this of deliberate purpose. His object was to popularize his doctrines. Sotades had a vogue; Arius desired one. What he did was precisely similar to what in our own time the Salvation Army has done in setting its hymns to the popular tunes and music-hall ditties of the day. This was at first a cause of scandal to many worthy people, who now admit the cleverness and admire the shrewdness of the idea. Similarly, Arius got people to sing his doctrines to the very tunes to which they had previously sung the indecencies of Sotades. He wrote ballads, so we are told by Philostorgius—the one Arian historian who has survived—for sailors, millers, and travellers. ...

Doug Shaver · 02-06-2012, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What was Athanasius's comparision of Arius to Sotades meant to achieve?

I haven't had a chance to really study the pertinent literature, but my off-the-top-of-the-head guess would be that what Athanasius meant to achieve was to convince other Christians that Arius was full of sh!t.

Duvduv · 02-06-2012, 12:06 PM

Probably well after the fact by some government employee under Athansius's name to again show how much the official state religion was in control of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What was Athanasius's comparision of Arius to Sotades meant to achieve?

I haven't had a chance to really study the pertinent literature, but my off-the-top-of-the-head guess would be that what Athanasius meant to achieve was to convince other Christians that Arius was full of sh!t.

mountainman · 02-06-2012, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What was Athanasius's comparision of Arius to Sotades meant to achieve?

I haven't had a chance to really study the pertinent literature, but my off-the-top-of-the-head guess would be that what Athanasius meant to achieve was to convince other Christians that Arius was full of sh!t.

I'd agree. Arius was the subject of Athanasius's orthodox heresiological calumny. But why did Athanasius use the figure of Sotades THRICE in his calumny and bagging against Arius? Where did Sotades fit into the conceptual framework of the 4th century, what was his fame and renown to get a mention by the most orthodox and most heresiological Athanasius?

Toto · 02-06-2012, 05:24 PM

Why not go with the most obvious solution? Arius used popular, scandalous, licentious music associated with Sotades.

Doug Shaver · 02-07-2012, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Why not go with the most obvious solution?

There's no fun in that.

mountainman · 02-07-2012, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Why not go with the most obvious solution? Arius used popular, scandalous, licentious music associated with Sotades

There's no fun in that.

Christianity itself became a subject of popular ridicule.

Stage commedies

This included theatrical performances, as was the habit of the Alexandrian Greeks.

Sotades was also, apparently, a political satirist.

Church History (Socrates Scholasticus) > Book I

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates Scholasticus about the onset of that pesky Arian controversy

By these means confusion everywhere prevailed: for one saw not only the prelates of the churches engaged in disputing, but the people also divided, some siding with one party, and some with the other.

To so disgraceful an extent was this affair carried, that Christianity became a subject of popular ridicule, even in the very theatres. Those who were at Alexandria sharply disputed about the highest points of doctrine, and sent deputations to the bishops of the several dioceses; while those who were of the opposite faction created a similar disturbance.

Religious Disputation and Social Disorder in Late Antiquity
Richard Lim
Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte , Bd. 44, H. 2 (2nd Qtr., 1995), pp. 204-231

Quote:

"Arius's [Thalia] was .... composed in rhythmic verse and
allegedly based on a metical pattern used in stage commedy."

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02-06-2012, 05:24 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Why not go with the most obvious solution? Arius used popular, scandalous, licentious music associated with Sotades.

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