Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-21-2009, 09:47 PM

This strange statement is taken from near the commencement of NHC 11.1 - The Interpretation of Knowledge translated by John D. Turner, as follows ...

(13 lines missing)

... they came to believe by means of signs and wonders and fabrications.
The likeness that came to be through them followed him,
but through reproaches and humiliations
before they received the apprehension of a vision
they fled without having heard that the Christ had been crucified.

But our generation is fleeing
since it does not yet even believe
that the Christ is alive.

In order that our faith may be holy (and) pure,
not relying upon itself actively,
but maintaining itself planted in him,
do not say: "Whence is the patience to measure faith?",
for each one is persuaded by the things he believes.

If he disbelieves them, then
he would be unable to be persuaded.
But it is a great thing for a man who has faith,
since he is not in unbelief, which is the world.

The author states "our generation is fleeing since it does not yet even believe that the Christ is alive." .

What on earth could this mean?

spamandham · 10-21-2009, 10:05 PM

I think it means that to gnostics, Christ was not some dude from Nazareth who had a few hang ups regarding crosses, but a metaphor (mystery) for something internal.

Since the body is a temporary dwelling which the rulers and authorities have as an abode, the man within, after being imprisoned in the fabrication, fell into suffering.

braces_for_impact · 10-21-2009, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I think it means that to gnostics, Christ was not some dude from Nazareth who had a few hang ups regarding crosses, but a metaphor (mystery) for something internal.

Since the body is a temporary dwelling which the rulers and authorities have as an abode, the man within, after being imprisoned in the fabrication, fell into suffering.

Beautiful. Well done.

mountainman · 10-21-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I think it means that to gnostics, Christ was not some dude from Nazareth who had a few hang ups regarding crosses, but a metaphor (mystery) for something internal.

Since the body is a temporary dwelling which the rulers and authorities have as an abode, the man within, after being imprisoned in the fabrication, fell into suffering.

Thanks spamandham. Here is another quote, appearing immediately before the one you have cited above ....

And he was crucified and he died - not his own death,
for he did not at all deserve to die because of the church of mortals.
And he was nailed so that they might keep him in the Church.

This appears rather explicit! The first line is docetic
and the third appears to be a political statement.

These gnostics were capable of being non metaphorical. The question remains of your interpretation, why do you think that the gnostics said that their generation is "fleeing" on account of their belief? Do you think that gnostic beliefs were being pursued by the Church?

mountainman · 10-25-2009, 01:56 PM

"they came to believe by means of signs and wonders and fabrications."
If the author is talking about Christians - what were these fabrications by which they came to believe?

Toto · 10-25-2009, 02:27 PM

"Fabrications" sounds like a translation of a word that could mean deeds or actions.

Huon · 10-25-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

But our generation is fleeing
since it does not yet even believe
that the Christ is alive.

Christ (greek) or Messiah (hebrew, aramaïc) ???
Is Nag Hammadi written in greek ?

mountainman · 10-25-2009, 03:20 PM

What does "he was nailed so that they might keep him in the Church" sound like? To me it sounds like the author is saying that the subject was nailed to the cross for the expediency of the retention of the myth to the church named after him. What does this sound like to anyone else?

mountainman · 10-25-2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

But our generation is fleeing
since it does not yet even believe
that the Christ is alive.

Christ (greek) or Messiah (hebrew, aramaïc) ???
Is Nag Hammadi written in greek ?

The HNC are coptic. The name "Christ" does not appear
The term translated as "christ" is a coptic abbreviation aka "nomina sacra".

See the article Fabulating Jesus, the Coptic Nomina Sacra

Quote:

The code for Christ is XS or sometimes XRS,
which could as well indicate Christos,
or even Chrestos.

In Coptic it looks like this:

XC, with a bar over the letters.
X is the Greek letter chi
and C is the Coptic S.

Scholars fill in XC so that
it reads “Christ,” never “Christos,”
even though “Christos” is more
consistent with the final S.

Where XC appears in the Apocryphon of John, for instance,
scholars put the Greek Christos in parenthesis
but translate the coded word as “Christ.”

Doing so, they immediately equate XC
with the well-known entity of Pauline and Johannine theology.

Again, this is poetic license.
Considering all the Gnostic material
that argues against the Pauline-Johannine redeemer,
this equation is extremely dubious.

I claim that scribes were instructed to use the codes by whoever directed them and oversaw the transcriptions that come down to us in the NHC materials. Who commissioned these transcriptions from (presumed) lost Greek original texts into Coptic? No one knows. Why were the Greek-language writings translated into Coptic at all? No one knows. Did those who commanded the translations do so to preserve Gnostic ideas, or to refute them? No one knows.

--- Author: John Lash
--- Original site: Fabulating Jesus - Why Gnostic "Codes" Do Not Name the Historical Jesus

mountainman · 10-25-2009, 04:29 PM

Some tools for those who consider themselves to be textual critics:

Exegesis

Quote:

(from the Greek ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text.

Biblical exegesis is a critical explanation or interpretation of the Bible. The goal of Biblical exegesis is to find the meaning of the text which then leads to discovering its significance or relevance.

Traditionally the term exegesis was used primarily for exegesis of the Bible. However in contemporary usage exegesis has broadened to mean a critical explanation of any text. The term is most often used for religious texts although it can be used for non-religious texts as well.

The critical aspects in doing exegesis covers a wide range of disciplines. Textual criticism is the investigation into the history and origins of the text. In addition there is an examination of the historical and cultural backgrounds for the author, the text, and the original audience. Then there is a classification of the types of literary genre present in the text, and an analysis of grammatical and syntactical features in the text itself.

Eisegesis

Quote:

(from the Greek root εις, meaning into, in, among) is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one's own ideas, reading into the text. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective. An individual who practices eisegesis is known as an eisegete, as someone who practices exegesis is known as an exegete. The term eisegete is often used in a mildly derogatory fashion.

10-21-2009, 09:47 PM	#1
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Our generation is fleeing since it does not yet even believe that the Christ is alive This strange statement is taken from near the commencement of NHC 11.1 - The Interpretation of Knowledge translated by John D. Turner, as follows ... (13 lines missing) ... they came to believe by means of signs and wonders and fabrications. The likeness that came to be through them followed him, but through reproaches and humiliations before they received the apprehension of a vision they fled without having heard that the Christ had been crucified. But our generation is fleeing since it does not yet even believe that the Christ is alive. In order that our faith may be holy (and) pure, not relying upon itself actively, but maintaining itself planted in him, do not say: "Whence is the patience to measure faith?", for each one is persuaded by the things he believes. If he disbelieves them, then he would be unable to be persuaded. But it is a great thing for a man who has faith, since he is not in unbelief, which is the world. The author states "our generation is fleeing since it does not yet even believe that the Christ is alive." . What on earth could this mean?

10-21-2009, 10:05 PM	#2
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	I think it means that to gnostics, Christ was not some dude from Nazareth who had a few hang ups regarding crosses, but a metaphor (mystery) for something internal. Since the body is a temporary dwelling which the rulers and authorities have as an abode, the man within, after being imprisoned in the fabrication, fell into suffering.

10-25-2009, 01:56 PM	#5
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	they came to believe by means of signs and wonders and fabrications. "they came to believe by means of signs and wonders and fabrications." If the author is talking about Christians - what were these fabrications by which they came to believe?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-25-2009, 02:27 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	"Fabrications" sounds like a translation of a word that could mean deeds or actions.

10-25-2009, 03:20 PM	#8
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	What does "he was nailed so that they might keep him in the Church" sound like? To me it sounds like the author is saying that the subject was nailed to the cross for the expediency of the retention of the myth to the church named after him. What does this sound like to anyone else?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.