GakuseiDon

But the body inside is still the same, isn't it? The "clothes" being changed are the state of corruptibility with the state of incorruptibility.

I think you are confusing several issues here, Steve. The issue of Jesus being raised is quite different to the fate of those bodies that have been dissolved over a period of time. Later apologists like Justin Martyr and Tatian tackled the later problem without referring to the former one, suggesting that they were considered as separate philosophical problems.

Steven Carr

And if Paul had written the same things in Greek, the Greek would also have been plain enough.

Steven Carr

Then how did Paul think he was solving the problems of the Christians in Corinth by using what happened to Jesus as an example of the fate of all of us?

Steven Carr

Did Paul believe that one substance could be turned into another substance - that air, earth, water and fire could be transformed into spirit?

Why then did he teach the Corinthians all about different substances, using examples of things which do not turn into each other?

Steven Carr

The clothes being changed are the body. We discard the old corruptible body and put on a new incorruptible body.

2 Corinthians 5
Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Clearly we are changing dwellings, not having an old dwelling given a new coat of incorruptibility.

Verse 5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We already have some of this new substance inside us, as a deposit and promise of what is to come when we will be made of this new substance.

GakuseiDon

Have a look again at the quote that you gave:

When the Holy One, blessed be He, calls to the earth to return all the bodies deposited with it, that which has become mixed with the dust of the earth improves and increases and raises up all the body without water

That pretty clearly is a physical resurrection. Given that the quoter seems to have been a First Century Jewish Rabbi, that shows a belief in a physical resurrection at the time of Paul. Paul discusses the "resurrection of the dead" with those who deny such a thing by using Christ's resurrection as an example -- we can see that there was a belief in a physical resurrection amongst Jews at the time, and it is a strange omission for Paul to not discuss this if he didn't believe in a physical resurrection.

Air and fire WERE spiritual substances. IMHO Paul believed that the physical body of those living when Christ returned would be transformed into a spiritual element like air or fire, and thus meet Christ in the air.

Where does it say that the old corruptible body is actually discarded?

Steven Carr

Actually, it was almost certainly written in the 8th century and it is entirely different to the way Paul writes who denies that the dust of the earth will be the material from which resurrected bodies are made.

GakuseiDon

Fair enough.

Where does Paul deny that the dust of the earth will be the material from which resurrected bodies are made? 1 Cor 15:48 is about the transformation. "First the natural, then the spiritual".

Steven Carr

'So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.'


Notice how Paul quotes from Gen 2:9, which is about the creation of Adam from the dust of the earth , and contrasts that with Jesus.


'If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.' Notice the 'also' , almost as though there were two bodies.

dzim77

Hi Steven,

(??)is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

What do you propose Paul is saying here? To what does "it is raised" refer to if not to the body that was sown?

Does Paul ever say that we will *discard* our old bodies? First he says "we are in this tent"... then he says "we are naked". There's some mixed metaphors here.

I think he leaves the possibility that our old bodies may be changed or transformed somehow into new, glorious bodies. His main point is to give *hope* that in heaven we will not be burdened with bodies that get tired and sick and die, but we will have glorious, imperishable bodies. His point is not to describe exactly how God will use or not use our current bodies but rather to describe the glorified bodies.

Paul is using metaphor upon metaphor, so it all remains mysterious. He never directly says exactly how God will do all this. This means that you cannot use these passages to discredit a bodily resurrection of Jesus.

To explain that we will have glorious bodies "of a different kind" after the resurrection... he does not argue against a transformation. In fact, later in the passage, Paul says, "we will all be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye".

He claimed that by his resurrection, Jesus had conquered death. He became a "firstfruits" of all those who would be resurrected after him... he, in a sense, 'opened the way' for others to be resurrected. Thus, giving the Corinthian believers hope of eternal life with God in a glorified body.