Steven Carr

Here are four passages written by Jews.

One of them was written by somebody who believed God would restore corpses from the dust they dissolve into.

One of them was written by somebody who believed God would not restore corpses from the dust they dissolve into.

One of them was written by somebody who believed that if a corpse was totally destroyed, God would restore the corpse from the elements it was originally made from.

One of them was written by somebody who believed that if a corpse was totally destroyed, God would creare a brand new body from new materials.



Passage A


All the bodies crumble into the dust of the earth until nothing remains of the body except a spoonful of earthly matter. In the future life when the Holy One, blessed be He, calls to the earth to return all the bodies deposited with it, that which had become mixed with the dust of the earth, like the yeast which is mixed with dough, improves and increases and it raises up all the body. When the Holy One, blessed be He, calls to the earth to return all the bodies deposited with it, that which has become mixed with the dust of the earth improves and increases and raises up all the body without water.



Passage B

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.



Passage C


"I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed.

Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man's beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law."


Passage D

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Of course, it is quite easy. Paul wrote passages B and D, because he did not think resurrection involved the corpse being restored. According to Paul, the corpse died and people got a new body, made of new materials.

This totally contradicts the Gospels, where the resurrected body of Jesus was the body which went into the ground, complete with all its flesh, bones and wounds.

dzim77

You can make the opposite argument by quoting a different portion of the same 1 Corinthians 15 passage:

Here a body is 'sown' and the same body is 'raised' but it is somehow changed or transformed into an imperishable, glorious, powerful body. It could very well be a physical body, but one that is "glorified".

Here Paul uses another illustration... the perishable body will be *clothed* with imperishable. He also says "we will be changed". Sounds like the old body somehow is raised and then 'clothed' or 'changed'.


This is a very very complex passage. To be honest, who knows exactly what Paul is talking about?? But - You cannot conclusively argue that Paul didn't believe that the resurrected will absolutely not have physical bodies... or that he doesn't leave the possibility that they will have the 'a better version' or a 'glorified version' of their same old earthly bodies.

No. A direct contradiction would say something about Jesus not rising physically, or that Jesus' body decayed, or that Jesus' body stayed in the ground/tomb. Paul never says anything close to this.

Here's what he does say about Jesus:

What does Paul mean that he was raised "according to the Scriptures"? Where in the OT does it say the Messiah will be raised?

Of course Luke-Acts claims that Paul preached the following concerning this in Pisidian Antioch:

So, according to Acts, Paul's "according to the Scriptures" meant that Jesus did not see bodily decay.

Steven Carr

Where does it say the 'same' body is raised? Where is the word 'same'? Where does Paul say anything happens to a perishable body (other than it perishing and dying)

Very important to change the words of Paul , if you want to make him talk about a resurrection of the body that was planted into the ground.

Once you have changed Paul's words though, it is easy to have him raise the body that was sown. 'It is sown, it is raised' and the job is done.

dzim77

right here...

The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

the phrase "it is raised" refers to the perishable body that is sown

Steven Carr

'He also says "we will be changed". Sounds like the old body somehow is raised and then 'clothed' or 'changed'.'

Paul uses the same word in Romans 1:23 to say that God was changed into an idol.

Perhaps he means that God was EXchanged for an idol?

And what transformation of a body does a change of clothing effectuate?

A clothing metaphor is not a changing of what is clothed.

A clothing metaphor means *changing* clothes.

There are old and new clothes, and you don't get new clothes by patching up old clothes.

I refer you to passage A, written by a Jew who believed that dust would be turned to life :

All the bodies crumble into the dust of the earth until nothing remains of the body except a spoonful of earthly matter. In the future life when the Holy One, blessed be He, calls to the earth to return all the bodies deposited with it, that which had become mixed with the dust of the earth, like the yeast which is mixed with dough, improves and increases and it raises up all the body. When the Holy One, blessed be He, calls to the earth to return all the bodies deposited with it, that which has become mixed with the dust of the earth improves and increases and raises up all the body without water.

Not a whiff of a clothing metaphor there, is there?

Steven Carr

And where is the Greek for 'it is raised'? Or for 'it is sown'?

Where is the Greek for 'the body that is sown is perishable'?

It is amazing how many people have looked at Paul's words over the years, and decided that they have to be changed to fit their beliefs.

dzim77

Hi Steven,

I really don't know exactly what Paul means. It's pretty mysterious. He uses multiple metaphors within this one passage. We are changed. We are clothed. We are sown and raised. The body that is sown is raised. We get a new body. It's all a bit mixed up.

The point is, there is no way you can rule out a bodily resurrection by using this passage. Paul does not rule out that somehow our old bodies may be changed and transformed.

By the way, what do you think "raised according to the Scriptures" means. What scripture might he be referring to?

dzim77

Perhaps you can explain the greek to me then The english seems plain enough to me.

GakuseiDon

I agree that there is no direct contradiction, but I just can't see Paul believing that the raised Jesus would have kept the crucifixion wounds. IMHO from Paul's writings, Paul believed that the bodies of those raised (including Jesus's) would be changed since "corruption can't inherit incorruption". I just can't imagine this including the infirmaties and wounds of "flesh and blood". Whereas in the Gospels, Jesus starts off special or is transfigured on a mount at some point, which IMO indicates that his body had somehow become purified or perfected, thus able to bear the later wounds even in a perfected state. My guess is that the difference came as Christianity moved from Paul's Jewish-influenced beliefs to the Gentile-influenced Gospels, though I can't really back that up at this stage.

Interesting! Acts-Paul actually says that Christ will "no more return to corruption". This seems to fit Paul's writings rather than the Gospels, with its emphasis on "corruption putting on incorruption". I can't help but feel that Paul regarded Jesus as having an ordinary body until after crucifixion, whereas in the Gospels the implication is that Jesus's body became extraordinary at some stage before crucifixion.

GakuseiDon

This is something that Steve likes to trot out every month or so. It's an interesting topic. A couple of interesting on-line articles on the subject are here:
Chris Price: http://www.christianorigins.com/resbody.html
Peter Kirby: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...tomb/paul.html

I used to think that Paul believed in a spiritual resurrection until I learned about "Middle-Platonic" ideas about "spiritual" substances. It's clear to me now that Paul is referring to a change to the physical body.