maryhelena

So? Epiphanius mixes stuff up. Why? Well, one reason could be that the stuff before him was itself mixed up. He made an attempt at finding some solution to the riddles before him. If we can find fault with Epiphanius - fine. Then let us attempt our own solutions to these JC riddles: JC born in the time of Herod the Great. JC born in the time of census of Quirinius. JC not yet 50 years old in gJohn. JC around 30 years elsewhere. A Christ figure born in the time of Alexander Jannaeus. Another born prior to the 15th year of Herod the Great.

The JC story is full of riddles. The challenge before us today is to try to find a better solution to those riddles. Yes, denounce Epiphinius by all means for his questionable attempt - but don't stop there. Let us also put our own case on the table and see if we can do better...

Duvduv

Here are the two excerpts from Book 1 of the Panarion:

Part 29
3:3 For the rulers in succession from Judah came to an end with Christ's arrival. Until he came the rulers were anointed priests,9 but after his birth in Bethlehem of Judea the order ended and was altered in the time of Alexander, a ruler of priestly and kingly stock.
3:4 This position died out with this Alexander from the time of Salina also known as Alexandra, in the time of King Herod and the Roman emperor Augustus. (Though this Alexander was crowned also, as one of the anointed priests and rulers.11
3:5 For when the two tribes, the kingly and priestly, were united—I mean the tribe of Judah with Aaron and the whole tribe of Levi—kings also became priests, for nothing hinted at in holy scripture can be wrong.)12
3:6 But then finally a gentile, King Herod, was crowned, and not David's descendants any more.

On Incarnation
2:1 The Saviour was born at Bethlehem of Judea in the thirty-third year of Herod,1 the forty-second of the Emperor Augustus. He went down into Egypt in the thirty-fifth year of Herod and returned from Egypt after Herod's death.
2:2 And so in the thirty-seventh year of that same reign of Herod, when Herod died after a reign of 37 years, the child was four years old.
2:3 Archelaus ruled for nine years. When Joseph left Egypt with Mary and the child at the beginning of his reign, hearing that Archelaus was king he went back to the Galilee and at this time settled in Nazareth.
2:4 Archelaus had a son, Herod the Younger,2 and this Herod succeeded him as king in the ninth year of the reign of his father Archelaus; and the years of Christ’s incarnation numbered thirteen.
2:5 In the eighteenth year of Herod surnamed Agrippa Jesus began his preaching and at that time received the baptism of John and preached an 'acceptable year' opposed by no one—Jews, Greeks, Samaritans or anyone else.

Duvduv

Then again we would have to wonder why the author called Epiphanius would spend so much ink and parchment to go into so much detail about the heresies of Marcion who had been dead for about TWO HUNDRED years and his movement also quite dead. Unless such authors were using an allegedly old dispute to reinforce their own officially sanctioned texts in their own time.

In a backhanded sort of way this itself legitimizes the authenticity of their texts by telling the literati of their time, "Well, even though he and these other groups were dangerous wicked heretics they STILL accepted the basics of these texts. See?!"

mountainman

Constantine's mother fits. The text is an “anti-gospel” or parody of the Christian gospel. Ephiphanius appears to have witnessed it in the 4th century in Greek, the language of the gnostic gospels and acts.

The Toledot Yeshu appears to be just another 4th century satire and/or parody of the imperial message (ie. Constantine's Bible).

It ranks right up there as one of the most offensive tracts (along with for example some of "The Greater Questions of Mary") that were written and published and circulated against the "Official Jesus Story" and the imperially backed state church.

See Life of Brian.

maryhelena

Hi, Pete....

Sorry, not buying that story.....

mountainman

Which story? David Biale's story that the Toldeth Yeshu is a polemical satire against Christianity?

maryhelena

Yes - a polemical satire - and no Pilate.....and no Herod the Great nativity....:huh: This is not a parody on the gospel JC storyboard - it's a story in it's own right - stands on it's own feet!

Iskander

Spoken like a true believer!

Toledotians soldiers, marching as to war

mountainman

What do you mean? Do you mean that the story "Life of Jesus" (i.e. the Toldeth Yeshu) stands as a story in its own right just like the story "Life of Brian" stands as a story in its own right? Do you think that the story "Life of Brian" stands on its own feet, or has it borrowed heavily from the new and strange testament?

maryhelena

I think the Toledot Yeshu story preceded the gospel JC story. From that perspective, it's the gospel JC story that has updated the earlier story. Re-set, and developed, the older story within a later time frame.

In other words; ideas that hold that the Toledot Yeshu story is a parody on the gospel JC story have got things back to front. The Toledot Yeshu is the older story.

The JC story is a developing storyboard.

1) birth in the time of Alexander Jannaeus. (Toledot Yeshu)
2) birth prior to the 15th year of Herod the Great (Slavonic Josephus)
3) birth late in the time of Herod the Great (gMatthew and JC a young child in the time of Archelaus)
4) birth in the time of the census of Quirinus, 6 c.e. (gLuke)

It's the JC historicists that need one birth date - the ahistoricists should welcome all the birth dates as evidence for a developing JC story...

Pete, obviously, JC historicists have to discredit the Toledot Yeshu story and it's dating - but why should the ahistoricists fall into that trap?

It's early christian origins we are after - and that requires that we get a handle on how the JC story developed. Get that story back to front - and we would continue to go around in circles...