maryhelena

The problem with the Toledot Yeshu story is not the birth of its Yeshu figure during the time of Alexander Janneaus (103-76 b.c.) but the time of the death of it's Yeshu figure i.e. during the time of Queen Helene. The wife of Alexander Jannaeus was not named Helene, she was named Salome Alexandria.

G.R.S. Mead has suggested that name-play is involved here:

If this is so, then the time of the death of the Yeshu figure is not determined, i.e. it cannot be assigned to the time of the wife of Alexander Jannaeus, Salome Alexandra. (76-67 b.c.)

The question is an open one: who is being referenced by the name of Queen Helene in the Toledot Yeshu story?

Mead considers a few names: Helena, mother of Constatine; Helene, Queen of Adiabene; Helen, of Simon Magus legend. In other words, attempts have been made to bring the Queen Helene, of the Toledot Yeshu story, to have some relevance for the gospel JC storyboard time frame.

While the Yeshu story has some relevance for the gospel JC story, this relevance is dealing with a very different time frame - however we interpret the identity of Queen Helene. This story has a birth narrative in the time of Alexander Jannaeus. Many years prior to the gospel birth narratives. The gospel story, itself, having two birth narratives. One in the time of Herod the Great, the other in the time of Quirinius. So, three birth narratives. Three birth narratives suggesting a moving story re a crucified figure. That, in itself, suggests that we are not dealing, within the JC story, with a historical figure. We are dealing with a developing story; a story that runs from the death of Alexander Jannaeus until the end of Pilate’s rule in Judea. And that time period runs to around 100 years of Hasmonean and Jewish history. History that is the backbone, the building blocks, of the gospel JC pseudo-history. Prophetic history, salvation history, pseudo-history. All attempts to interpret, from history, some meaning or philosophical insights.

Thus, while it is easy to discard the Toledot Yeshu story, to do so is to jeopardize or derail any investigation into early Christian origins. Because what that story does do is open up the historical landscape. We are not, gospel wise, dealing only with a one year or a three year ministry, we are dealing with 100 years of Hasmonean and Herodian history.

Link to a chart that references the Toledot Yeshu story in connection with the developing JC storyboard.

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....34#post7209834

Who was the Queen Helene of the Toledot Yeshu story? Mead writes that the name Salome, of Salome Alexandra, is, in Greek and Latin, the name Salina. Is there a Queen Salina of relevance to the death of a crucified figure, a figure, as in the Toledot Yeshu, hung on a tree?

A link to a previous chart, dealing with Hasmonean and Herodian history, mentions that Antigonus, the last Hasmonan King of the Jews, was executed by Marc Anthony in 37 b.c. Cassius Dio saying Antigonus was bound to a cross and then beheaded. Antigonus ruled from 40 b.c. The same year that Herod the Great was made King while in Rome. Did a Queen Salina live at that time?

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....87#post7113187

Yes, Queen Cleopatra Selene II, born in 40 b.c. to Cleopatra and Marc Antony. Marc Antony being the man who executed Antigonus, in Antioch. Antioch being the “main city of the Nazarenes”, according to the Toledot Yeshu.

Cleopatra Selene II

What this proposed identification of the Queen Helene, of the Toledot Yeshu, does do is suggest that the execution of Antigonus, by a Roman agent, was not only a significant historical event - but that this historical execution of the last King and High Priest of the Jews, born under the rule of his grandfather, Alexander Jannaeus, and executed during the time of Queen Helene/Cleopatra Selene II, daughter of the executioner of Antigonus, was relevant to the pseudo-history of the Toledot Yeshu and the pseudo-history gospel JC storyboard.

Duvduv

Hi, Maryhelena. There are several versions of Toldoth Yeshu, two of which are in Frank Zindler's book. However, they are late products and not attributed to any authentic rabbinical sources. The work is a real mishmash of confused idea and has clearly been updated to describe Yeshu with the doctrines of the trinity and the mature church.

As far as the queen is concerned, in the Talmud tractate Shabbat 16b she is identified as Shlomzion, misspelled by a scribe evidently as Shalzion.

The author or authors of Toldoth Yeshu obviously confused her name although I think Zindler says that Salome was confused to become Helena through a scribal error whereby an S and H are interchangeable. If she was already known as Salome in Josephus and Shlomzion in the Talmud, it makes no sense that the author would call her Helena. Perhaps he thought she had several names or that the name Helena was equivalent to Alexandra.

maryhelena

Hi, Duvduv

My interest in the Toledot Yeshu story is because of 1) its dating of the birth of Yeshu to the time of Alexander Jannaeus and 2) his death under the time of Queen Helene. The first dating under Alexander Jannaeus is pretty straightforward, such a figure is historical. The second point, 2) a death under Queen Helene is problematic. Hence this post....

According to Mead (link above) the name Helene appears in almost most copies of the Toledot Yeshu - and various attempts have been made to identify this figure - as this is not the name of the wife of Alexander Jannaeus (his wife being Salome Alexandria).

Thus a puzzle, re Queen Helene, from the Toledot Yeshu....

Duvduv

That's true, but if writers/scribes confused names and spellings (or had other agendas) it would be understandable that they changed her name since Jannaeus was no longer alive at the time of Yeshu. But since the whole text is so confused this problem is not a big deal because there are many other examples of confusion in the Toledoth story.

maryhelena

Understandable that writers/scribes changed the name of the wife of Alexander Jannaeus - when that name, the name of his wife, would be very public knowledge? A wife who became Queen of the Jews, in her own right, after the death of Alexander Jannaeus. Indeed, writers/scribes can have their own agenda - but dealing with a public figure and changing her name - that's something that would be easy to challenge. Methinks there is more here than an attempt to confuse the reader re the name of the wife of Alexander Jannaeus...

stephan huller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_of_Adiabene

Duvduv

Good point. However if the writer did not know the sources that are in the Talmud and was otherwise confused it's n ot hard to imagine confusing her name with the other perhaps more known and more recent figure.

maryhelena

No cigar, Stephan....


"Helena of Adiabene (Hebrew: הלני המלכה‎) was queen of Adiabene and wife of Monobaz I. With her husband she was the mother of Izates II and Monobaz II. She died about 56 CE"

No date is given for her birth.

Yeshu was born, re the storyline, in the time of Alexander Jannaeus. The given date is around 90 b.c. Even if you give Helena of Adiabene a very old age - her dating does not fit a death of the Yeshu of the Toledot Yeshu story. As I mentioned in the OP - identifying and dating a Queen Helene to fit with the gospel JC storyboard - is simply not a realistic scenario. The dating for the birth is set, in the storyline - around 90 b.c.

Yes, the gospel JC death story can be connected to the timeline of Helena of Adiabene - but not, I would maintain, the story of the Toledot Yeshu.

maryhelena

If every 'mistake' we come across can be washed away with 'the writer was confused' - then perhaps it's time to shut up shop and head for home....

Duvduv

Yes, I agree. However in this case we find Toldoth Yeshu filled with numerous examples of confusion, anachronisms and mistakes. So the name of the queen is only one of many.