Roland

According to Doherty, Ignatius mentioned Mary and Pilate in relation to Jesus. Yet, reading through Ignatius, I notice that he actually says quite a bit more about the details of Jesus' life.

Here's an example:

From Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans:
"For I have observed that ye are perfected in an immoveable faith, as if ye were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, both in the flesh and in the spirit, and are established in love through the blood of Christ, being fully persuaded with respect to our Lord, that He was truly of the seed of David according to the flesh, and the Son of God according to the will and power of God; that He was truly born of a virgin, was baptized by John, in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him; and was truly, under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch, nailed[to the cross] for us in His flesh. Of this fruit we are by His divinely-blessed passion, that He might set up a standard s for all ages, through His resurrection, to all His holy and faithful[followers], whether among Jews or Gentiles, in the one body of His Church."

"For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, "Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit." "

"but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. "

"name of Jesus Christ, and in His flesh and blood, in His passion and resurrection, both corporeal and spiritual, in union with God and you. Grace, mercy, peace, and patience, be with you for evermore! "

The baptism by John and Jesus' statement to Peter and the other disciples go unmentioned by Doherty. Does anyone have an explanation? Thanks.

Roland

Sorry, everyone. I didn't notice until after I had submitted this thread that there were two other threads on Doherty posted today. Yikes! I hope this isn't overkill.

Peter Kirby

Maybe it's only important to note that Ignatius clearly did accept a "Gospel Jesus"? I don't know how Doherty mentioning (or not mentioning) these additional earthly details would change things.

best,
Peter Kirby

Amaleq13

I think the belief expressed in this passage needs to be considered whenever anyone tries to frame early Christian beliefs in terms of "mythical" versus "historical" specifically "flesh" versus "spirit".

Notice that he believes that the Risen Christ is still "possessed of flesh" despite apparently existing currently in Heaven. While Ignatius is clearly accepting stories of activity on earth, this belief in heavenly flesh seems to me to call into question any assertion that earlier references (eg Paul) to the "flesh" of Jesus requires earthly activity.

Derec

Ignatius was living pretty late so it is not surprising that he knew the Gospel Jesus. Actually it is him who first mentions the four now canonical gospels and declares them authoritative.

Doherty's thesis with Ignatius is not how much he knows about earthly details of Jesus' life but that he has to remind his audience that this is "truly" how it happened. To Doherty that means that these details were not commonly accepted by late 2nd century.

UMoC

Peter Kirby

You have most likely confused Irenaeus and Ignatius. Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies around 180 CE and has a famous passage where he defends the fourfold canon. Ignatius, by tradition, wrote in 107 CE. His letters do not mention the canonical gospels in an explicit way.

best,
Peter Kirby

Derec

My bad.


But the general point still stands as Ignatius wrote sufficiently long after the gospels are usually dated at.

UMoC

Meatros

IIRC in Doherty's book, he explains that Ignatius was reminding fellow Christians that Christ was 'real'. I'm not sure whether or not he mentions the four gospels, but Doherty was trying to show that there was already at least a number of Christians out there who didn't accept a flesh and blood Jesus.

Amaleq13

It looks to me like Ignatius is only addressing those who believed in a spiritual resurrection:

"For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh..." (my emphasis)

I think the only thing Ignatius helps Doherty with is the notion that "flesh" can refer to a being in Heaven.

Chili

Yes but heaven does not begin until ascension with resurrection being the prerequisite for that event and when Jesus ascended they all fell down.

Point is that Ignatius may have believed in a physical ascension as well.