Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Aspirin99 · 11-05-2005, 12:48 PM

I know that most say 36 CE according to Josephus because of the association between John the Baptist and the war between Aretas IV and Herod Antipas. However, unless there’s something I’m missing, it seems that Josephus is only saying that Herod was punished because of what he did, not that it had recently happened. Here's the passage in Josephus.

“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him…�? (Antiquities of the Jews XVIII, Chapter 5:2)

It seems that John’s death probably happened in the recent past from this event, but it how recent? Could it stretch 5 or 6 years back without straining Josephus’ account of it? It seems to me probably not more than two years to maintain the association. Thoughts? I'm just wondering if there's more data I'm not aware of.

Roger Pearse · 11-05-2005, 01:03 PM

In his last one.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Aspirin99 · 11-05-2005, 01:08 PM

ahaha - no doubt.

Aspirin99 · 11-05-2005, 02:11 PM

Here is some interesting data:

* He states that the quarrel with Aretas sprang up "about the time" (Ant. 18.5.1. 109) that Herod's brother Philip died in 34 CE (Ant. 18.4.6 106).
* During this time Herod's brother Agrippa had gone to Rome "a year before the death of Tiberius" (Ant18.5.3 126), which places Agrippas's departure in 36 CE.
* Soon after the battle, the Syrian commander Vitellius was ordered by Tiberius to attack Aretas, whereupon Vitellius marched through Judea with his army, pausing in Jerusalem to placate the Jews and to sacrifice at a festival (probably Passover). On the fourth day of his stay in Jerusalem he learned of the death of Tiberius, which had occurred on March 16 37 CE (and it could have taken up to a month for Jerusalem to get the news). This puts the battle in the winter of 36/37 CE.
* Vitellius' action against Aretas must have occurred between his action against the Parthians, under Tiberius' orders, and the death of Tiberius. The Parthian war occurred in 35 and 36 CE, as indicated both by Josephus and by the Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius. (Herod the Tetrarch assisted Vitellius in negotiations between Tiberius and the Parthian king.)

From : http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/JohnTBaptist.htm

However, this site describes an alternative view for an earlier date for the battle between Antipas and Aretas. It's interesting, but I'm not familiar enough with it to be too critical yet.

yummyfur · 11-06-2005, 07:19 AM

Just to add to the confusion. In Ant. 18.3.4 right after Jospehus has talked about the revolt by the Jews againts Pilate, and the supposed mention of Jesus, he talks about the Jews being expelled from Rome "About the same time". The problem is, that this event is dated to 19 CE by Tacitus(Annals 2.285). Since Pilate didn't come to Judea until 26 CE, that leaves a gap of 7+(the revolt was probably not in his first year) years that Josephus allows for "about the same time". Right after this section, Josephus picks back up with more Pilate stories, and Pilate being sent to Rome(36 CE).

So it seems that in Josephus's mind, anything within some 10+ years of something, are close in time. So it doesn't mean that John the Baptists death has to be that close to the actual Aretas conflict for Josephus to see a linkage.

The other reason for Jospehus(and some Jews of the time) to connect Herod's loss to Aretas, as being caused by his unjust slaying of John, is that John was held and put to death in Macherus, which was where Herod's wife (and Aretas' daughter)went when she had found out about Herodias. She used this as a way to escape Herod, and this starts the war between Herod and her father. So it might not be the closeness in time of the events, but the location of both John the Baptists death and the cause of the army of Herod's destruction, that connects the events.

TedM · 11-06-2005, 07:37 AM

I wrote to the author of the site quoted here and received a response, back in August, that you may find of some value. It can be found someone on this site also:

My email to him:

Quote:

Hi,

Thanks for your your website on John the Baptist. I may be way off but have a thought about what you have written on your webpage about the date of JTB's death:

"Josephus implied this battle occurred fairly soon after Herod's separation from Aretas' daughter; in between these two events, John was executed (assuming he did criticize the new marriage as the gospels relate). Thus, Saulnier asks whether the date of this battle might have been well before the year 36 CE in which Josephus places it. "

I think there is reason in Josephus' account to see a time elapse between Herod's separation and the war. It comes in his statement just preceding his account of the war:

"So Aretas made this the first occasion of his enmity between him and Herod, who had also some quarrel with him about their limits at the country of Gamalitis. "

The 'this the first occasion' is the discovery of divorce plans by Aretas. The other quarrel was after this "first occasion", and was over land boundaries. Josephus then describes the war. If the sequence is as described, the war may have not been as immediate as is often thought. It isn't reasonable to assume that the war began only because of Areta's daughter, since Josephus mentions the quarrel about Gamalitis, and it isn't reasonable to assume that this quarrel immediately followed the situation with his daughter. It is reasonable to conclude that some time elapsed before the war actually took place in 36c.e. That time could well have been a number of years. This could therefore place John's criticism AND death at a date well before 36c.e.

Would the Jews still blame the loss in the war on Herod's treatment of John some 7-8 years after John was dead? It would if John criticized the Herod's personal life (which Josephus definitely implies) since Josephus makes clear that Herod's marriage situation the first occasion of enmity that led Aretas to declare war on Herod. The link in the minds of the Jews would likely have been loud and clear.

Bernard Muller points out at http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/appa.html that Mark 6 may further suggest an earlier date:
Quote:
"When the daughter of Herodias [young Salome (whose father was Herodias' previous husband), later married to Philip, the king (tetrarch) of Cesarea Philippi (Ant., XVIII, V, 4), who died in 33-34C.E (Ant., XVIII, IV, 6). Why later?Simply, Salome could not have performed a lascivious dance in front of a court of men as a married woman (to a king!) or as a royal widow. That would have been most improper, even scandalous] ` came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests. The king said to the girl, [a married woman or widow could not be called a "girl"] ` " ... At once the girl hurried in to the king ... He presented it to the girl, and she gave it to her mother."

This would place Salome's dance before 33-34c.e. since she hadn't yet even married a man who died in 33-34c.e.

Does any of this sound reasonable to you?

His response:

Quote:

Thanks for your email. You quote the English translation of Ant. 18.113,

"So Aretas made this the first occasion of his enmity between him and Herod, who had also some quarrel with him about their limits at the country of Gamalitis."

And you suggest the words "first occasion" can imply a precedence in time, followed only after some interval by further disputes. As it is dangerous to argue from translations, we have to see if the Greek text supports this. The original is:

ho de archên echthras tautên poiêsamenos peri te horôn en gêi têi Gamalikêi,

Literally translating this, one gets something like;

"But he made this the start of hostilities regarding the boundaries in the land of Gamala..."

This is more compressed than the usual translation. The sentence does not end there, but immediately continues with the disposition of forces and commanders on the two sides.

From the point of view of historical possibility, one can postulate a gap in time between the arrival of Aretas' daughter and his subsequent determination to use this as part of an excuse to go to war. But Josephus, as a writer, has definitely made use of narrative techniques to give the impression of a great pace of events, moving swiftly from Herod's return from Rome, his wife's calculated and dramatic move to Machaerus, her subsequent flight to her father, her revelation of Herod's plans, and then an immediate description of battle. So either Josephus is simply relating events as they indeed happened, or else he has some motivation for making it appear these occurred more closely in time than was the case.

The latter possibility is actually rather interesting. It is quite plausible that ex-followers of John would attribute any defeat of Herod to his wickedness in regard to their former leader, even if the divine punishment were delayed a few years. These followers would naturally gloss over the intervening time as unimportant (only a passing moment when viewed from the vantage point of heaven). If Josephus in fact also compressed this time, than his source was one of these followers of John, or at least a sympathizer; which makes him a sympathizer too. And this potential sympathy is supported by his unusual discussion of John the Baptist (assuming it is authentic), which resonates with his fond memories from the "Life" of his time in the wilderness with the John-like figure Banu.

As you might tell, I rather like this last explanation.

Also, Muller's point is good, but it requires accepting the story from Mark, which many historians would be reluctant to do.

I am in the process of updating my web site. Do you mind if I post your letter on my site? Maybe other people will share their opinions about this.

ted

Aspirin99 · 11-06-2005, 09:21 AM

Thanks Yummyfur and TedM. Very useful. I need to digest it for a while.

yummyfur · 11-06-2005, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

This would place Salome's dance before 33-34c.e. since she hadn't yet even married a man who died in 33-34c.e.

This just reminded me of something. In Ant 18.5.1 says "all Herod's army was destroyed by the treachery of some fugitives, who, though they were of the tetrarchy of Philip, joined with Aretas's army". It's possible that this is just a mistake by Jospehus, or that even after Philips death, it was still called "tetrarchy of Philip" even though it was now part of Syria. But there is the possibility that this battle took place before Phillip's death, and thus why Josephus refers to the deserters as from the tetrarchy of Philip.

Also there is the implication that these persons should have been loyal to Herod Antipas, but if Philip was dead, they were subjects of Syria, and would not have any implied loyalty to Antipas, whereas if this was before Philips death, they would be expected to support Philip's brother.

The text of Jospehus states that Phasaelis, Aretas's daughter, found out about Herod Antipas's treachery towards her, before it was known publicly, and went to Macherus, both to get away from Herod, and to possibly secure this important fortress/palace against her treacherous husband with the aid of her father. It's possible that Aretas made war with Herod Antipas, on the pretense of the border dispute, instead of the problem of Herodias, because this was not public knowledge at the time, and Aretas wanted to have the benefit of surprise. Herod would be expecting a minor border skirmish over some small disputed territory, but Aretas would send the full weight of his army, and invade deep into Herod Antpas's territory.

11-05-2005, 12:48 PM	#1
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	In what year was John the Baptist killed? I know that most say 36 CE according to Josephus because of the association between John the Baptist and the war between Aretas IV and Herod Antipas. However, unless there’s something I’m missing, it seems that Josephus is only saying that Herod was punished because of what he did, not that it had recently happened. Here's the passage in Josephus. “Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him…�? (Antiquities of the Jews XVIII, Chapter 5:2) It seems that John’s death probably happened in the recent past from this event, but it how recent? Could it stretch 5 or 6 years back without straining Josephus’ account of it? It seems to me probably not more than two years to maintain the association. Thoughts? I'm just wondering if there's more data I'm not aware of.

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11-05-2005, 01:03 PM	#2
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	In his last one. All the best, Roger Pearse

11-05-2005, 01:08 PM	#3
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	ahaha - no doubt.

11-05-2005, 02:11 PM	#4
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	Here is some interesting data: * He states that the quarrel with Aretas sprang up "about the time" (Ant. 18.5.1. 109) that Herod's brother Philip died in 34 CE (Ant. 18.4.6 106). * During this time Herod's brother Agrippa had gone to Rome "a year before the death of Tiberius" (Ant18.5.3 126), which places Agrippas's departure in 36 CE. * Soon after the battle, the Syrian commander Vitellius was ordered by Tiberius to attack Aretas, whereupon Vitellius marched through Judea with his army, pausing in Jerusalem to placate the Jews and to sacrifice at a festival (probably Passover). On the fourth day of his stay in Jerusalem he learned of the death of Tiberius, which had occurred on March 16 37 CE (and it could have taken up to a month for Jerusalem to get the news). This puts the battle in the winter of 36/37 CE. * Vitellius' action against Aretas must have occurred between his action against the Parthians, under Tiberius' orders, and the death of Tiberius. The Parthian war occurred in 35 and 36 CE, as indicated both by Josephus and by the Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius. (Herod the Tetrarch assisted Vitellius in negotiations between Tiberius and the Parthian king.) From : http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/JohnTBaptist.htm However, this site describes an alternative view for an earlier date for the battle between Antipas and Aretas. It's interesting, but I'm not familiar enough with it to be too critical yet.

11-06-2005, 07:19 AM	#5
yummyfur Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 351	Just to add to the confusion. In Ant. 18.3.4 right after Jospehus has talked about the revolt by the Jews againts Pilate, and the supposed mention of Jesus, he talks about the Jews being expelled from Rome "About the same time". The problem is, that this event is dated to 19 CE by Tacitus(Annals 2.285). Since Pilate didn't come to Judea until 26 CE, that leaves a gap of 7+(the revolt was probably not in his first year) years that Josephus allows for "about the same time". Right after this section, Josephus picks back up with more Pilate stories, and Pilate being sent to Rome(36 CE). So it seems that in Josephus's mind, anything within some 10+ years of something, are close in time. So it doesn't mean that John the Baptists death has to be that close to the actual Aretas conflict for Josephus to see a linkage. The other reason for Jospehus(and some Jews of the time) to connect Herod's loss to Aretas, as being caused by his unjust slaying of John, is that John was held and put to death in Macherus, which was where Herod's wife (and Aretas' daughter)went when she had found out about Herodias. She used this as a way to escape Herod, and this starts the war between Herod and her father. So it might not be the closeness in time of the events, but the location of both John the Baptists death and the cause of the army of Herod's destruction, that connects the events.

11-06-2005, 09:21 AM	#7
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	Thanks Yummyfur and TedM. Very useful. I need to digest it for a while.

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