GakuseiDon

In a thread on "The Mythicist Position/History of Mythicism", started by someone who states in his OP that Acharya S "actually has a quite a bit to offer in this area", then I would say that the one thing my post was NOT, was off-topic.

True or false, Dave31:
1. Acharya S suggests (via Hallet) that the Pygmies were the originators of the Adam and Eve story ("the Pygmies could not possibly have borrowed it from any outside source").
2. Acharya S suggests (via Jackson) that the Pygmies had a Pygmy Christ, born of a virgin, etc, whose story later on became the Osiris, Isis and Horus of Egypt.
3. Acharya S suggests (via Jackson) that these myths were spread by Pygmies who "in the distant past developed a highly technical and advanced type of material culture and that they built boats and traveled widely around the world".
4. Acharya S states that to think that gods such as Krishna, Quetzalcoatl, Osiris, Horus and Jesus were aliens, is just a bit absurd. Instead they were myths brought by the "sky people", who were "the remnants of one of the advanced global civilizations destroyed by cataclysm". She doesn't quite state it, but this would appear to include the Pygmies. If they were the first ones with those myths, then they were the first to spread those stories.

Dave, is that her position or not? I was very careful to quote Acharya and her work. If I have misquoted her, please let me know. State clearly where I have smeared her in my earlier post, or retract.

Oh, for goodness sake! All research comes from Acharya S's own work. Perhaps that is the link between your first sentence and your second.

No, Dave. There is no smear. I used her own words. You can check them for yourself. Quotes and links are in that post. Are my quotes accurate, Dave? If so, how have I smeared her? Details, please.

GakuseiDon

Acharya S suggests that the Pygmies are the source of the Adam and Eve story, as well as the source for the Osiris, Horus and Isis story, which influenced the development of the Christ myth. Those are major claims, striking at the heart of a lot of world myths. Would that interest you, if she could supply evidence for this? Would that be pertinent to a thread on "The Mythicist Position/History of Mythicism"?

mountainman

Splitting the pygmies out would be fair to the OP here. I am interested in reading about the history of the Mythicist position without having to wade through various exchanges about pygmies.

It would be pertinent to a sensational thread on "Pygmies and The Mythicist Position/History of Mythicism". It would contribute nothing to the outline of the Mythicist Position and/or its history. It is extraneous imo for the simple reason that the critical epoch to be examined by the position actually starts (as the "Origins") in the 1st century CE and finishes no later (as the "Christian End-Game") than the 5th century CE. Pygmies are utterly irrelevant to this epoch as far as I know.

dog-on

GDon, could Acharya be incorrect about Pygmies and be correct about the astrotheological basis for many religions?

GakuseiDon

Hey, isn't the 1st C CE to 5th C CE the period when the Pygmy Constantine and the Pygmy Eusebius fabricated Pygmy Christianity?

Read the OP. It's by Dave31, and it is quoting Acharya S. Acharya S suggests that Pygmy myths were the origin of Adam and Eve and the Osiris, Horus and Isis stories. There is much more I could trot out, but I won't. What I want to understand is whether Acharya's position is that the "sky people", who were "the remnants of one of the advanced global civilizations destroyed by cataclysm", included the Pygmies, who "in the distant past developed a highly technical and advanced type of material culture, built boats and traveled widely around the world".

This touches on Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden story, Horus, Osiris, Isis, Typhon, Christ: if that isn't pertinent to the Mythicist position (in this case, Acharya's), then I don't know what is. All I want is for Dave31 to confirm that I am not misrepresenting Acharya S; whether the Pygmies were the originators of those myths; and whether or not the Pygmies are related to the "sky people". Once Dave31 does that, then I won't need to say anything else. But by not responding directly to the points raised about Acharya's views, the thread becomes dominated by posts asking him to actually respond directly. And thus people want the posts split out.

The topic is the Mythicist Position, started by someone saying that Acharya "actually has a quite a bit to offer in this area". If questioning aspects of her position are not allowed and are off-thread, then perhaps Dave31 should have made that clear in the OP. And I would be interested to see what posts would be split out that aren't related to her Mythicist position (the "Doughboy Crucified" image aside).

Dave31, just confirm that I have accurately depicted Acharya's position on the origins of those myths, and I will never again bring up the topic of her Super-advanced Pygmy theory on any Internet forum unless someone brings it up first (I might bring it up on my revamped website.)

GakuseiDon

Sure.

dog-on

Do Pygmies play a large role in Acharya's overall hypothesis?

GakuseiDon

Yes, they most certainly do. Hence my questions. Read my post back on page 4 again for the context (my emphasis below):

[Jackson summarizes:]The Pygmies believed in a Father-God who was murdered, and a Virgin Mother, who gave birth to a Saviour-God Son, who in turn avenged the death of his father. These later on became the Osiris, Isis and Horus of Egypt. The Pygmy Christ was born of a virgin, died for the salvation of his people, arose from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven.

Also (my emphasis in the original):

[Hallet writes] My Pygmy friends have an Adam story of their own. Schebesta has told this tale and emphasized that the Pygmies could not possibly have borrowed it from any outside source. It is the story of a god, a garden paradise, a sacred tree, a noble Pygmy man, who was molded from the dust of the earth, and a wicked Pygmy woman who led him into sin... The legend tells of the ban placed by God upon a single fruit, the woman's urging, the man's reluctance, the original sin, the discovery by God, and the awful punishment he laid upon the Pygmy sinners; the loss of immortality and paradise, the pangs of childbirth, and the curse of hard work.

I won't go through the "sky people" bit again, but it strikes me that if these myths originated with the Pygmies, then they are the ultimate source for what fed into her astrotheological interpretations. I'm saying that this is an important part of her position. How can it not be?

(ETA) Look, I'm not questioning her sources here. I'm not even arguing that she is wrong (I mean, do I really need to?) I'm trying to get clarification on her position.

dog-on

I read your stuff, but I am a bit confused with what you are saying versus what, via the other links on this thread, Acharya seems to have actually said.

Anyway, are you seriously saying that the foundation of Acharya's hypothesis is that Pygmies were the actual source for some of the biblical tales?

GakuseiDon

I'm trying to clarify Acharya's hypothesis that the Pygmies were connected to the "sky people" and the actual source for early myths, including Horus, Hercules, Krishna, American gods, Adam and Eve, Christ, etc. I've probably read more of Acharya S's work than you have, so you might not see the association in her mythicist position between ancient global civilizations and the spread of myths. Here is what she writes in "Christ Conspiracy" (page 391):

Evidence of an Ancient Global Civilization

As has been seen, it is virtually impossible to determine which nation is the progenitor of western culture and, therefore, the Judeo-Christian tradition, and we are left to ponder the idea of another source, such as the Pygmies, who claim to have been a global culture many thousands of years ago.

She's speculating that the Pygmies are the source of western culture and Judeo-Christian tradition. The source, dog-on! How important would that make the Pygmies? Acharya also sees links between myths in different parts of the globe:

Moreover, the Mayan creator god was called "Hurakan", and the Caribbean storm god was "Hurukan," both of which are nearly identical to the Tibetan wrathful diety, "Heruka," which in turn is related to Herakcles or Hercules. It is from this stormy god that we get the word "Hurricane." Walker hypothesizes that "Horus" was "Heruka" of the East and notes that the Pygmies revered Heru, an archaic name for Horus.

I didn't want to keep popping out quotes, because all I want from Dave31 is the clarification between the Pygmies and the "sky people" (as well as whether the cruciform was representative by death, though that's a minor matter) as the originators to most of the world's myths. If Dave31 could have actually answered my questions in my first post on the topic, then that would have been that. It's frustrating that his refusal to address specific questions causes these exchanges, which then get considered to be off-topic.

Dog-on, do you agree that Pygmies appear to be very important to the creation, if not spread, of many world-wide myths according to Acharya S?