ApostateAbe

Acharya S says a lot of weird things, which wouldn't be a problem if they were substantiated, but most of the time they seem to be almost pulled out of thin air. Dave31, maybe you should go back to past threads and confront the challenges to the theories of Acharya S. They are challenges from people who have read her material and researched it. This past thread is a good example:

Achraya S: Pygmy Christ? Pygmies had global civilization?

This present thread is looking too much like your usual advertisement for Acharya S. The normal pattern from you is that you challenge those who demand evidence to just read her books to find the evidence, rather than just laying out the case freely like most of us would do. Of course, that means they probably have to buy the books, which means royalties for Acharya S. When someone steps up to that challenge, buys one of her books, does the research, and finds things horribly wrong with it, then I strongly suggest that you confront it.

Dave31

LMAO! I can always count on ApostateAbe to start tossing the same old worn out crap in an attempt to smear Acharya however he can. It's always shoot first, ask questions later for you AA. Your post has NOTHING to do with this thread as per usual. You have admitted that you've never actually read her work. You're still trying to bludgeon her to death with your own ignorance of her first book from 1999. How long are you going to keep riding that scooter?

RE: Achraya S: Pygmy Christ? Pygmies had global civilization?

GakuseiDon's, purpose in mentioning pygmies etc is merely a favored tool utilized to smear the work by Acharya. Meanwhile, he completely misses the point for why those topics are brought up in the first place, rendering his entire premise faulty right out of the gate. Of course, he never figures that out because he also has never actually read her book and he, like you AA, are still stuck in knee-jerk reaction mode on her first book.

GD, nor you actually care about any of the research, your only interest is in convoluting Acharya's work by creating an endless stream of straw man arguments and ridicule attempting to persuade others from actually reading the work for themselves.

GD's posting of that pygmy thread all over the net are just the latest example of his own smear campaign he's had going for YEEEAAARRRSSS now. Same as you posting it here right now, ApostateAbe. Neither you nor GakuseiDon have any intention of a reasonable, objective discussion concerning her work.

When GakuseiDon is done with juvenile smear tactics and ready for a grown up conversation he post his questions at Acharya's forum:

Pygmies in 'The Christ Conspiracy'

A legit conversation will never be allowed to happen here so long as people like ApostateAbe and GakuseiDon are around to take a dump in it, as has been proven in almost every single thread here concerning her work. You guys (and a few others here) are simply not to be trusted at all when it comes to the work by Acharya/Murdock.

"The normal pattern from you is that you challenge those who demand evidence to just read her books to find the evidence"

That's because you have never actually read the works which would give you the information you request. It's your typical pattern to refuse to study the subject yet demand to be SPOON-FED.

Acharya S/Murdock currently has five books with over 2,100 pages of text, including over 5,700 footnotes/citations to primary sources and the works of highly credentialed authorities from a wide variety of relevant fields, adding up to over 1,600 bibliographical sources. Her books also contain over 300 illustrations.

These 30 year scholars (& more) strongly disagree with your views on Acharya S/Murdock -

Archaeologist endorses 'Christ in Egypt'

Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection Reviewed by Dr. Price

ApostateAbe

Dave31, when someone wants evidence from me, I give them the evidence that I have, for free. The evidence is normally information that is freely available online. Maybe, you would think of that as "spoon feeding," but I think of that as fulfilling the expectations for participation in an intellectual debate.

With that said, do you have evidence that Pygmies had an ancient global civilization? That thing about "Pygmy fossils have been found in all parts of the world," as Acharya's source claims, would be a good example. Just give a list of specimens.

Kapyong

Gday,

Sorry, I should not have said that so baldly.

But, I said she was a cheat, because I read and analysed her work here - I criticised her work as poor and not well-based on reliable sources, but it so happens that the very first quote of hers was accurate and I said so.

She then appeared, thanked me for noting her work was accurate, ignored the thrust of my post which said her work was NOT accurate, then dissappeared again..

She is a cheat.


I said she was a fool because whe believes in a crazy masonic conspiracy reaching back millenia; and she has said some real crazy stuff about pygmies too.


K.

Dave31

Kapyong, your "analysis" was nothing more than a malicious scathing over the top hateful rant.

You only embarrass yourself with comments like that. She provided the sources so, she clearly didn't make it up.

Pygmies in The Christ Conspiracy

Your diatribe against her is not the topic of this thread. If you hold so much hatred for Acharya S then, simply don't post here. Nobody is twisting your arm forcing you to post in threads that discuss her or her works. You only bring down the level of discourse. Stop trolling up the thread.

Dave31

LMAO!!!

You are seriously going to cite GakuseiDon??? GD is definitely not even close to being any sort of credible source regarding any of Acharya's work. He's another Christian apologist who also, like ApostateAbe, has spewed hatred and malicious falsehoods about Acharya and her work for YEARS without ever having read a single book of hers. And, you KNOW that Toto, so get that trash out of here and stop promoting it. It's embarrassing to see you take GD seriously. That thread by GD is just ridicule for mentioning "pygmies."

You obviously didn't read the link which explains WHY she included mention of the pygmies.

Pygmies in The Christ Conspiracy

And it debunks the absurd GakuseiDon conspiracy. Anytime GD mentions Acharya's work it's ALWAYS to continue on with his years long smear campaign. Which is exactly the same reason it was brought here to this thread because it certain is off topic.

I find it impossible to have a mature conversation here at this forum. It's always a major disappointment here.

GakuseiDon

Dave, that's very interesting about astrotheology. Could you ask Acharya a question about her Super-advanced Pygmy theory and the Pygmy Christ in respect to astrotheology, please?

In this thread on her website, she cites Jackson:

[Jackson summarizes:]The Pygmies believed in a Father-God who was murdered, and a Virgin Mother, who gave birth to a Saviour-God Son, who in turn avenged the death of his father. These later on became the Osiris, Isis and Horus of Egypt. The Pygmy Christ was born of a virgin, died for the salvation of his people, arose from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven. Certainly this looks Christianity before Christ.

So the Pygmy Christ was born of a virgin, rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. Is that astrotheological? The reason I ask is the emphasis that at least some of the stories originated from the Pygmies, when she quotes Hallet (emphasis in original):

My Pygmy friends have an Adam story of their own. Schebesta has told this tale and emphasized that the Pygmies could not possibly have borrowed it from any outside source. It is the story of a god, a garden paradise, a sacred tree, a noble Pygmy man, who was molded from the dust of the earth, and a wicked Pygmy woman who led him into sin... The legend tells of the ban placed by God upon a single fruit, the woman's urging, the man's reluctance, the original sin, the discovery by God, and the awful punishment he laid upon the Pygmy sinners; the loss of immortality and paradise, the pangs of childbirth, and the curse of hard work.

According to Hallet, the pygmies thought that the Garden of Eden was an actual place, in fact located at the Mountains of the Moon in the centre of Africa. So, if there is no borrowing, doesn't this suggest that the origins of these stories are NOT astrotheological at all, but legendary? (Perhaps the astrotheological aspects developed later?)

Also, from the same website, Acharya quotes Jackson again:

Hallet's Pygmy friends told him that in the distant past they developed a highly technical and advanced type of material culture and that they built boats and traveled widely around the world, but that this technical excellence brought them nothing but back luck, so, preferring happiness to misery, they finally gave up this high material civilization. There may be a lot of truth in these traditions, for Pygmy fossils have been found in all parts of the world.

Reading Acharya's website about the Sky People, it struck me that perhaps she was talking about the Pygmies, as in this link here? She writes:

In any serious investigation of this subject, we must be able to discern between the "gods" and the "sky people" mentioned by the ancients. As noted, the enlightened ancients knew the "gods" were the planets, representing astrotheology. The sky people were a different matter apparently. Some of them may have been "aliens" in the off world sense, but other legends hold that at least some of these sky people were the remnants of one of the advanced global civilizations destroyed by cataclysm. The legends further say that such advanced people appeared around the world to reestablish civilization after the various cataclysms.

I'm just asking, because she also wrote there that:

In a serious scientific search, one needs to be more cautious in jumping to conclusions based on speculation, and to produce a recital of facts, with as little speculation as possible.

It seems to me that if the Pygmies had a global advanced civilization, then -- using as little speculation as possible -- they would be a good candidate for spreading stories about the Garden of Eden and the Pygmy Christ. But you see the problem -- if those stories were legendary rather than astrotheological, and Osiris, Horus and Krishna' stories were based on Pygmy legends, then any astrotheological development would have had to have occurred later. Could you confirm with her, please?

Another point: The implications of figures in cruciform. Going back to the first link, Acharya writes:

When it is said in the paragraph above from ZG that Horus was "crucified," it was not part of his myth that he was held down and nailed to a cross. Rather, Horus is depicted in cruciform, with his arms outstretched, as we find in images, and as Egyptologist James Bonwick says, "With outstretched arms he is the vault of heaven." (Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought, p. 157)...

It is a bit misleading, therefore, to say that Horus was "crucified," as the word "crucified" invokes the image of a man being held down and nailed to a cross. However, one could say of the "God Sun" that "he" was crossified, at the vernal equinoxes - and that motif, we contend, is at the basis of the gospel "crucifixion."

In the link I gave earlier, she writes:

... to suggest that all these solar heroes such as Krishna, Quetzalcoatl, Osiris, Horus and Jesus, with their virtually identical "lives," were aliens, is just a bit absurd, since it supposes that they all were born of virgins, had tyrants trying to kill them at their birth, were presented with the same gifts, did and said the same things and then were all crucified. In shoring up such a premise, we are asked to believe that "superior" aliens kept "coming down" and kindly obliging the barbaric humans, who kept insisting upon crucifying them (between two thieves, no less).

She appears (correct me if I am wrong) to be associating "cruciform/crucifixion" with death. Would you agree there? Because, she suggests in her article on "Was Horus Crucified?":

As revealed in my books Christ in Egypt and Suns of God, there is much more to the subject of Pagan gods and goddesses on a cross or in cruciform, serving as crucifixes. The images and descriptions of deities in cruciform include Osiris, Isis and Horus, and the answer to the question of whether or not Horus was ever associated with the cross and depicted on a cross or in cruciform must be a resounding yes.

Acharya refers to an artifact with "Horus represented on the cross at the vernal equinox between two "thieves"". So: was the cruciform motif associated with death? If Horus was depicted in cruciform -- between two "thieves" no less -- what exactly does that mean? Was he being crucified?

(ETA) No doubt you will give your usual "LOL", claim I haven't read her books (though I have), ignore the points above (even though I've quoted from her book and website) and say that I'm engaging on a smear campaign (even though this is all points that she herself uses).

It would be good if you could look into these things for yourself, Dave, and respond on those points, rather than give the usual commercial.

Toto

Dave31: You have objected to GDon bringing up the Pymgies again, but I have not seen a coherent answer.

Is Acharya S willing to admit error on any point, however insignificant to her wider thesis - or possibly even harmful to it? As GDon points out, the idea of the crucifixion being borrowed from the Pygmies is actually a problem if the crucifixion really represents the cruciform display of a god.

You might check out the thread on Was Jesus actually crucified?

Dave31

The Pygmy issue is completely off topic here and you know that, Toto. You also know that Acharya's work doesn't stand or fall on this issue. GakuseiDon knows that too, but that's never his point ... do you think he has posted his pygmy threads all around the net because he's really interested in pygmies and their history? Hell no, he does it purely out of obnoxious spite, harassment, ridicule and abuse of Acharya - SAME AS HE HAS BEEN DOING FOR YEARS, since at least 2004. He now claims to have read her work but that has only been recently and it was only her 1st book from 1999, which he has obviously skimmed merely to look for anything he can use for his years long smear campaign against Acharya - again, as you know full well that is GakuseiDon's own "usual commercial."

What research has GakuseiDon performed on the Pygmy topic? None, he just sounds like a Beavis and Butt-head episode with his, "Ah huh, huhh, she said Pygmy ... ah huh, huhh"

It's just not possible to have a reasonable, mature discussion here at this forum <edit>, as they constantly bring down the level of discourse while they take absolutely no responsibility for their malicious smears, nor are they held accountable for it.

Toto "Acharya's source is an anthropologist who accepted some Pygmy legends at face value. This is not a credible source."

Living with them to study them for 20 years is a far cry different from your claim from post 57.

She has already addressed the issue and you know that too.

Again, all of this Pygmy harassment belongs in the thread already created long ago by GakuseiDon as it is off topic here but, you already knew that, Toto.

Toto

Dave31: You periodically drop by and post some links to Acharya S's work or some youtube videos. I then get a host of objections that you are spamming / advertising, etc. But I try to be tolerant.

However, you have to realize that this is a discussion board, not a place for you to advertise. When you post stuff, you have to be prepared for discussion, which includes hostile adversaries picking the argument apart. If you think the objections are not fair, it is up to you to explain why. That's how this "debate" game is played. If you were playing tennis, would you complain that your opponent wasn't being nice and didn't hit the ball where you could return it easily?

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I am taking this very seriously, and have read your links. Acharya S has not addressed my concern (or another concern over another matter.) An anthropologist who has lived with the Pygmies for 20 years and accepts their myths is displaying gullibility about his sources. He is not a credible source for the truth of those myths. The Pygmies told him some tall tales about how they were smarter than anyone else and already invented everything, including a form of Christianity - and he swallowed it whole. This does not reflect well on him, and does not reflect well on Acharya S's ability to evaluate evidence.

The Pygmy topic has been part of this thread since February. And I think that GDon has added a new twist that connects it to mythicism and Acharya S's theories in particular.