Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DCHindley · 03-22-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

This is an incantation from the Sepher ha Razim, a text containing spells in pure midrashic Hebrew, plus some magical praxis in Greek, and some weird characters usually called "alphabet of the magi" in medieval magical manuscripts, and generally dated to late 3rd or early 4th century CE.

Oops, that was "Celestial Writing or Writings of the Angels", not Alphabet of the Magi.

I still say that these lamellas are meant to be magical amulets for casting malicious spells (the lead is the tip off).

Has anyone noticed that the writing appears raised above the sheet? If this was intended to be read from rear to front as Hebrew books are today, then either it was written on the back of the sheet, left to right with the letters reversed (Michelangelo style) so it can be read in bas relief, or we are reading the backside of it and the letter forms are even weirder than they appear now, a mixture of fonts from paleo Hebrew, Greek and maybe some sort of magical writing (e.g. the "X" with the knobs at the end, unless they are Alephs or Tavs).

Later magical amulets like this often did not even attempt to say anything real, just look really cool so the customer felt like they had paid the magician dearly for the "real thing". That there were 70 might suggest a factory setting operated by hucksters. I do not think we have real secret books here. Just spells.

A bibliography might include:

Sepher Ha-Razim: The Book of the Mysteries (or via: amazon.co.uk), tr. by Michael A Morgan, SBL: 1983. Believed to have originated around the 4th century CE. There are seven mss in Hebrew and numerous translations of it into Latin and Arabic.

The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation (or via: amazon.co.uk), ed. by Hans Dieter Betz, U of Chicago: 1986. The spells represent texts dated to late 2nd to early 5th century CE.

The Greater Key of Solomon, "Ed." by L W De Laurence, 1914 (but really a pirated edition of Clavicus Salomonis (The Key of Solomon): Translated and edited from manuscripts in the British Museum (or via: amazon.co.uk), by S Liddell MacGregor Mathers, G. Redway: 1889) These are medieval magical texts, often created or copied by Jewish occult figures. de Lawrence was a quack, but Mathers was a bona fide scholar, although devoted to occult subjects

Pretty much any book on Mandean/Aramaic Incantation Bowls (suggestion - Ed Yamauchi) or ancient magical amulets in general.

All these books include representations of the non standard letter forms and images depicting drawings of people and things in the texts.

DCH

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 06:00 PM

Apparently there are many other metal codices out there from a very early period. Here is one mentioned by R.A. Kraft :
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//cours...lCodex-kf.html

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 06:04 PM

Apparently the manufacture of lead codices was very popular in Dacia as early as the third century

http://www.romanianhistoryandculture...eadtablets.htm

DCHindley · 03-22-2011, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

I read the two links but don't see the connection to "Christian texts". Is it because the text may be about 2000 years old that it might connect to Christian/Jesus experiences?

There is something resembling a cup or chalice to the right of the menorah in the clearer picture. Gee, I guess that makes it Christian. Who else would include an image of a cup? (The answer is maybe it is a lamp, or represents poison or something that is being cursed in a spell).

The Hebrew letters seem closest, to my untrained eye, to the Paleo-Hebrew letters found on coins of the 2nd revolt. See table V at the end of The Samaritan Pentateuch and the Origin of the Samaritan Sect (or via: amazon.co.uk), by James D Purvis, Harvard UP: 1968.

DCH

DCHindley · 03-22-2011, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Apparently the manufacture of lead codices was very popular in Dacia as early as the third century

http://www.romanianhistoryandculture...eadtablets.htm

Again in Bas Relief. Interesting.

DCH

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 06:17 PM

Yes but all the 'experts' at Jim West's site have already declared it to be a fake without even having the fucking evidence in their hand! It's ridiculous. I don't know that it is authentic but we've only been looking at the evidence for like 24 hours. What's wrong with people? Is this Access Hollywood? American's Got Scholars? Is there a demand to get a sound bite in before the next novelty act comes on stage? It's unbelievable what a rotten civilization we've become.

I always say to my wife when the old people die off - God knows what's going to happen to the world! This is just spinning out of control. If people can't behave in a rational manner and suspend judgement until all the evidence has come in with regards to something as idiotic as a 'Biblical relic' imagine what they'll do when serious issues like health care, campaign finance reform, the deficit come up. Wait a minute.

XKV8R · 03-22-2011, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I always say to my wife when the old people die off - God knows what's going to happen to the world! This is just spinning out of control. If people can't behave in a rational manner and suspend judgement until all the evidence has come in with regards to something as idiotic as a 'Biblical relic' imagine what they'll do when serious issues like health care, campaign finance reform, the deficit come up. Wait a minute.

lol.

i've been rescanning the bar-kokhba revolt coinage and, despite bar-kokhba's obsession with the temple, i am hard-pressed to find a coin with a menorah (or hanukiah) on it. am i missing one?

fwiw, i can't recall a lamp on the first revolt coinage either. that would fit with the above comment that it didn't become a prominent symbol until much later.

there is the menorah on the antigonas coin, but that's all i can find.

also worth noting, do the 8-point stars around the top of the lead text resemble the stars on the reverse of jannaeus' prutoth?

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 10:25 PM

Here is what Rachel Hachlili's book says on this question:

Quote:

During the period between the destruction of the Temple and the Bar Kokhba Revolt, few representations of menoroth are found, mostly in funerary ait. By depicting menoroth with more or with less than seven branches, or shaping the arms not in the semicircular form associated with the Temple menorah, the Jews seem to have avoided infringing the prohibition against accurate representations. The rendering of menoroth on second-century ossuaries can be similarly explained. The variety of forms assigned to the menorah might be explained by three passages in the Talmud (BT. Menahot 28 b; Aboda Zara 43 a; Rosh Hashana 24 a,b) where the rabbis prohibit building a house in the image of the Temple, fashioning a seven- branched menorah in the image of the Temple menorah, and making table in the Temple table's image.

Only from the third century does the seven-branched menorah appear as a symbol showing complete disregard for this prohibition. Relatively few examples of three-, five- and nine-branched menoroth have been found from this period.

In later periods, from the end of the second century on, the menorah was used in the synagogue ritual as a reminder of its function in the Temple. This is also attested to by the depiction of the menorah on mosaic floors where it represents the synagogue menorah. Evidence exists that a single menorah may have served in some synagogues from the fourth century on, namely the free-standing menoroth discovered in a number of synagogues as well as the two aediculae, one of which possibly housed a menorah, as in the case in the synagogues of Capernaum, Nabratein, and Meroth. From the fourth century two menoroth might have functioned simultaneously in the synagogue ritual, as attested by the depiction of a pair of menoroth on several synagogue mosaic pavements and other objects.

Thus, at some time during the third-fourth centuries CE a change must have occurred in the synagogue ritual requiring the use of two sometimes unidentical menoroth which flanked the Torah shrine or ark, possibly in the same flanking and fully functional. This change in the mosaic floor composition, when a pair of menoroth began to be shown, includes other innovations such as zodiac representations and additional ritual utensils. The expansion of Christianity, and its inherent challenge to the established Jewish religion, may have been the cause of the increasing ceremonial content in synagogue ritual and art. [p. 198 - 199]

In one way the evidence seems to argue against a dating in the bar Khochba period. There were no menorah depicitions on coins that I can find either so one can't on the surface argue for the revolutionaries taking up the symbolism either. Yet on the other hand what could be more symbolic of their cause which I have always presumed to be the restoration of the Temple? It is ambiguous to say the least.

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 10:31 PM

First century menorahs and menorah images on lamps dated from the bar Kochba period in the pages around this link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...page&q&f=false

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 10:42 PM

The Cambridge History of Judaism: The late Roman-Rabbinic period By William David Davies, Steven T. Katz, Louis Finkelstein offers a possible connection between the lamp

Quote:

Several scholars have identified menorot on this type of lamp, which would make it the only depiction of the menorah on a lamp prior to its appearance in mid-third-century synagogues and discus lamps after 70 CE. Others have identified these same symbols as depictions of stylized drinking vessels known as kantharoi.

These lamps originated in the first century CE in Second Temple times, and because they are also found in the Bar Kochba caves and in post-70 CE contexts in Judea and the Shephelah, it is fair to assume that they remained in use to the mid-second century when other non-Judean types replaced them [p. 187]

Again I can't prove a relationship. I don't even know where the cave was located where the book was discovered. I think that tentatively at least there MIGHT be a relationship insofar as the bar Kochba rebels seemed to have had menorah symbols on lamps hidden in caves and this book with menorahs on it was also hidden in a cave. But we know far less than we should about either phenomenon.

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03-22-2011, 06:00 PM	#52
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Apparently there are many other metal codices out there from a very early period. Here is one mentioned by R.A. Kraft : http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//cours...lCodex-kf.html

03-22-2011, 06:04 PM	#53
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Apparently the manufacture of lead codices was very popular in Dacia as early as the third century http://www.romanianhistoryandculture...eadtablets.htm

03-22-2011, 06:17 PM	#56
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes but all the 'experts' at Jim West's site have already declared it to be a fake without even having the fucking evidence in their hand! It's ridiculous. I don't know that it is authentic but we've only been looking at the evidence for like 24 hours. What's wrong with people? Is this Access Hollywood? American's Got Scholars? Is there a demand to get a sound bite in before the next novelty act comes on stage? It's unbelievable what a rotten civilization we've become. I always say to my wife when the old people die off - God knows what's going to happen to the world! This is just spinning out of control. If people can't behave in a rational manner and suspend judgement until all the evidence has come in with regards to something as idiotic as a 'Biblical relic' imagine what they'll do when serious issues like health care, campaign finance reform, the deficit come up. Wait a minute.

03-22-2011, 10:31 PM	#59
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	First century menorahs and menorah images on lamps dated from the bar Kochba period in the pages around this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...page&q&f=false

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