Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Joan of Bark · 06-04-2008, 04:22 AM

... transliterate the original Aramaic before then translating it into English in certain passages of Mark?

I'm thinking specifically of Mark 15:34 (NIV)...

Quote:

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

... although this technique is also used in Mark 5:41 and 7:34, and possibly other places. I checked in other Bibles and saw the same thing (NASB, KJV, ASV, and NLT).

The only reason I can think of is that the Greek manuscripts the translators were using also did this, although I can't see why the Greek writers would have wanted to show the Aramaic in these specific instances, either.

Any ideas ...? (And yes, I know it's not an Earth-shattering question, but it is bothering me).

gstafleu · 06-04-2008, 07:13 AM

The Greek seems to have the same thing:

Quote:

και τη ωρα τη εννατη εβοησεν ο ιησους φωνη μεγαλη λεγων ελωι ελωι λαμμα σαβαχθανι ο εστιν μεθερμηνευομενον ο θεος μου ο θεος μου εις τι με εγκατελιπες

As to why they put it in, perhaps to add a bit of authenticity, some local color? Or perhaps to add some mystery? The word that is in English translations usually translated with "translated" is in the Greek "μεθερμηνευομενον" which sounds a bit more like "decrypted" than "translated" to me (but I can't check because the Perseus server seems to be down again).

[Edit]The server is up again. LSJ does give "Translate" as the only translation of "methermêneuô".[/Edit]

Gerard Stafleu

andrewcriddle · 06-04-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

... transliterate the original Aramaic before then translating it into English in certain passages of Mark?

I'm thinking specifically of Mark 15:34 (NIV)...

Quote:

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

... although this technique is also used in Mark 5:41 and 7:34, and possibly other places. I checked in other Bibles and saw the same thing (NASB, KJV, ASV, and NLT).

The only reason I can think of is that the Greek manuscripts the translators were using also did this, although I can't see why the Greek writers would have wanted to show the Aramaic in these specific instances, either.

As Gerard already said, the translators are simply following the original which gives the Aramaic followed by a Greek translation.

The reason for the Greek writers doing this probably varied in different cases but in Mark 15:
verse 35

Quote:

And some of the bystanders hearing it said "Behold he is calling Elijah"

makes more sense if verse 34 gives the original Aramaic "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" as well as what it means.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 06-04-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

to add a bit of authenticity, some local color?

Dramatic effect in a play or story?

Make someone who knows nothing about the local culture look as if they do?

What is this assumption of original aramaic? The Gospels are Greek documents aren't they?

Ben C Smith · 06-04-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What is this assumption of original aramaic? The Gospels are Greek documents aren't they?

The passages in question are transliterations of Aramaic words or phrases.

There is no need for assumption. Unless you are referring to the theory that the entire gospel was written in Aramaic.

Ben.

gstafleu · 06-05-2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The reason for the Greek writers doing this probably varied in different cases but in Mark 15:
verse 35

Quote:

And some of the bystanders hearing it said "Behold he is calling Elijah"

makes more sense if verse 34 gives the original Aramaic "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" as well as what it means.

You think this is a set-up by Mark to introduce a reference to Elijah into the mix? If so, Mark must be displaying his humorous side again, maybe? The stupid Jerusalem Jews not even recognizing a call to their god in their own language? So probably more a put-down of the Jerusalem crowd rather than a ref to Elijah.

Gerard Stafleu

Clivedurdle · 06-05-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What is this assumption of original aramaic? The Gospels are Greek documents aren't they?

The passages in question are transliterations of Aramaic words or phrases.

There is no need for assumption. Unless you are referring to the theory that the entire gospel was written in Aramaic.

Ben.

Both assumptions - that the gospels are Aramaic

And Eloi etc are records of Jesus' words,

and not the result of an author getting his character to say something in the local lingo that an Aramaic speaking acquaintance told him in Rome.

In the same way that the geography is iffy, why is not the same scepticism used on these allegedly authentic tidbits which have clear dramatic effect?

Conan Doyle - The Complete Sherlock Holmes (or via: amazon.co.uk) A Study in Scarlet p39

Quote:

In the meantime you must make yourself contended by the consciousness of success, like the Roman miser-

Populus me sibilat, at mihi plaudo
Ipse domi simul ac nummos contemplar in arca

And Conan Doyle does not provide a translation!

(Btw, who knew Dr Watson was married?)

Toto · 06-05-2008, 02:33 PM

Getting a bit off topic here -

I think I recall that Dr. Watson at some point acquired a wife, although we don't meet her.

The educated readers of Sherlock Holmes would have learned Latin. (That phrase is translated here:

Quote:

from Horace, Book 1, Satire 1.

"The public hisses at me, but I applaude myself in my own house, and simultaneously contemplate the money in my chest."

Clivedurdle · 06-05-2008, 02:54 PM

She is the wronged heiress in The Sign of Four!

But actually this is on topic - authors commonly put a bit of foreign in their writing, like an early crossword puzzle for their readers.

So are there versions without these phrases translated? Might we have handed down to us versions for the common folk complete with answers?

JoeWallack · 06-07-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

She is the wronged heiress in The Sign of Four!

But actually this is on topic - authors commonly put a bit of foreign in their writing, like an early crossword puzzle for their readers.

So are there versions without these phrases translated? Might we have handed down to us versions for the common folk complete with answers?

JW:
Spin described it as Abracadaver but I think CrossWord puzzle is more appropriate. I think "Mark's" source for the use of Aramaic is Paul:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Romans_8

Quote:

8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

8:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:

8:13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

8:15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Note that all of "Mark's" uses of Aramaic relate to the resurrection in some way:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_5

Quote:

5:41 And taking the child by the hand, he saith unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, Arise.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_7

Quote:

7:34 and looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14

Quote:

Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; remove this cup from me: howbeit not what I will, but what thou wilt.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_15

Quote:

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [Body dies & spirit lives]

Putting the Aramaic together:

I say unto thee, Arise

Be opened (heaven)

Father (God)

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Joseph

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

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06-05-2008, 02:54 PM	#9
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	She is the wronged heiress in The Sign of Four! But actually this is on topic - authors commonly put a bit of foreign in their writing, like an early crossword puzzle for their readers. So are there versions without these phrases translated? Might we have handed down to us versions for the common folk complete with answers?

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