Diogenes the Cynic

But yes, even if Jesus had been trained in Hebrew, his audience would not have been and his sermons would have been in Aramaic.

Chris Weimer

Right, which is why I said "[his] ministry would probably reflect Aramaic then". But if they were sectarian enough, it might have been Hebrew. But the current form of the gospel is that it's in Aramaic (i.e. public ministry). And yes, it probably just meant teacher, but it certainly would imply a learned teacher who would have been able to at least read the Torah, which Jesus does according to the Gospel (albeit the LXX).

Er, but all this is even assuming the gospels are based on truth, which at this point (Torah Septuagint style?) we know is false.

judge

True and we can still see evidence of this in the puns and wordplays still extant in the gospels (some but not allof which work in hebrew also IIUC).
I gave one example earlier on of a song in Aramaic.
There are more examples if anyone is interested.

chimaira

hello, thank you for your answers, if Jésus taught in the synagogue it was in Hebrew and not in Araméen I think !!!

French Prometheus

The average 1st century Jew didn't know Hebrew. Sermons were usually in Aramaic, not Hebrew.

Chris Weimer

How did you determine this? I mean, even though most Catholics didn't know Latin in the 18th-19th centuries, sermons were still in Latin. I would figure at a synagogue everything would still be in Hebrew.

Diogenes the Cynic

We're not talking about formal liturgies. Latin Catholic masses were cermonial, not didactic in intent. For something like the sermon on the mount or any informal public speeches such as what jesus was alleged to have done, there would hav been no point in speaking Hebrew because the audience would not have understood it and it would have served no liturgical purpose. The Catholic Laity did not understand Latin either. Any actual teaching was done in the language they knew.

French Prometheus

Diogenes answered that question very well. The formal rituals of the Temple were of course in Hebrew but the teachings of the rabbis to the general population were generally in the only language they could understand fluently: (dialectal) Aramaic.

Chris Weimer

Prometheus_fr and Diogenes the Cynic - read again and you will see that I have no doubt that Jesus as depicted by the gospels would have spoken Aramaic to the masses, but it was when Diogenes mentioned sermons that I thought about Torah readings, which of course would have been in Hebrew and which Jesus is said to have done on at least one occasion.

Johann_Kaspar

Non
Etonnez-vous!
Ignorance is not an argument.
Paul never existed but in the mind of some Jewish writers. :rolling: