Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 06-30-2006, 02:37 PM

That find in Israel shows Jesus and fish.

What is the connection? Might their have been an accidental change from fish to Christ?

Quote:

Tertullian, in his treatise On Baptism, makes a pun on the word, writing that "we, little fishes, after the example of our Icqus [ΙΧΘΥΣ] Jesus Christ, are born in water" (§1). Some sources also suggest that fish symbol was chosen because the Hebrew pronunciation of "Christ" is very similar to that of "fish" in Hebrew.

Quote:

Ichthys was the lover-son of the ancient Babylonian sea goddess Atargatis, and was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Pelagia or Delphine. The word also meant "womb" and "dolphin" in some tongues, and representations of this appeared in the depiction of mermaids. The fish is also a central element in other stories, including the Goddess of Ephesus (who has a fish amulet covering her genital region), as well as the tale of the fish that swallowed the penis of Osiris, and was also considered a symbol of the vulva of Isis.

Along with being a generative and reproductive spirit in some religious systems, the fish also has been identified in certain cultures with reincarnation and the life force. Sir James George Frazer noted in his work, "Adonis, Attis, Osiris: Studies in the History of Oriental Religion" (Part Four of his larger work, "The Golden Bough") that among one group in India, the fish was believed to house a deceased soul, and that as part of a fertility ritual a specific fish is eaten in the belief that it will be reincarnated in a newborn child.

The fish symbol may have also been known as "the Great Mother," a pointed oval sign, referred to as the Vesica Piscis. Also, in ancient Greek, "fish" and "womb" were denoted by the same word ("delphos"). Its link to fertility, birth, feminine sexuality and the natural force of women was acknowledged also by the Celts, as well as pagan cultures throughout northern Europe. Eleanor Gaddon traces a "Cult of the Fish Mother" as far back as the hunting and fishing people of the Danube River Basin in the sixth millennium B.C.E. Over fifty shrines have been found throughout the region which depict a fishlike deity, a female creature who "incorporates aspects of an egg, a fish and a woman which could have been a primeval creator or a mythical ancestress. . ." The "Great Goddess" was portrayed elsewhere with pendulous breasts, accentuated buttocks and a conspicuous vaginal orifice, resembling an upright Vesica Piscis.
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthus

Might it all be the other way round, three druids - magi - came along talking about fish, and Hebrews thought they were talking about the christ?

Clivedurdle · 06-30-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

A medieval hymn calls Jesus "the little fish in the Virgin's fountain." The Christ child is often shown inside a mandorla, superimposed over Mary's womb. Mary herself can be equated with the goddess Aphrodite Marina, who brought forth all the fish in the oceans; Marina's blue robe and pearl necklace, like the Christian Mary's, are classic symbols of the sea.

On Cyprus, Mary to this day is worshipped as "Panaghia Aphroditessa." The connections are many: the Vesica Piscis illumines the common heritage of Christianity and the Goddess traditions it absorbed, traditions it would later vilify and all but destroy.

http://www.philomuse.com/kingfisher/lab/vp.htm

What evidence is there that the fish was used by xians as a secret sign?

Haran · 06-30-2006, 03:00 PM

Clive, may I ask about how old you are? You are using some VERY poor sources for your historical investigations. I would suggest finding a good college or seminary library or using interlibrary loans to obtain better sources of information and steer clear of popular historical accounts and websites that make fantastic and unbelievable claims. Just a recommendation.

Clivedurdle · 06-30-2006, 03:10 PM

I thought I asked a question, and then posted from wiki and somewhere I googled a couple of perspectives I found!

Are you saying fish and christ are not similar in Hebrew and Mary and Aphrodite do not have similarities?

Haran · 06-30-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I thought I asked a question, and then posted from wiki and somewhere I googled a couple of perspectives I found!

Wiki articles swing wildly in their biases and are constantly rewitten. They are not definitive sources. In my opinion they aren't usually all that wonderful due to the great biases that creep into controversial subjects.

Quote:

Are you saying fish and christ are not similar in Hebrew

Hebrew for christ is meshiach.
Hebrew for fish is dag.

You be the judge.

Quote:

and Mary and Aphrodite do not have similarities?

I'm sure there are similarites. I'm sure I could also find similarities between Mary and other goddesses. The similarities must be much more striking than they are to be worth anything at all.

I have read several of your threads and in most of them you are positing very controversial material. Do you just enjoy such material because it is controversial, or are you looking for good history? If you are looking for good history you are much better off finding scholarly books and journals.

Clivedurdle · 07-01-2006, 02:58 PM

Is it not generally accepted that the fish symbol is earlier than the cross in the archaeological record?

If so, why might that be? A secret sign sounds like apologia, links to pagan ideas looks far more probable.

And what is the more controversial idea, a son of a god dying for the salvation of all mankind - the xian belief, or the mixing and evolution of generally available ideas into a new religion?

http://chiosonline.gr/myrsinidi.asp

Clivedurdle · 07-01-2006, 03:44 PM

Then how come a nineteenth monk finds a statue of aphrodite in the sea and assumes it is Mary? Mistake or correct identification?

And did the early christians have a sophisticated enough christology to come up with the summary version ichthus, or is that much later, and maybe the gospels are a novel in which the mythological theme of the sea has not been properly understood?

Clivedurdle · 07-01-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Many aspects of myths can be studied to learn about a
culture. However, for the purpose of this discussion, the two
most important aspects are, why did the culture create these
stories of the seas, and what kind of view did the
people have and how did it affect the tales' creation. These
stories seem to be insignificant child's tales, yet they
actually hold valuable information for the historian and the
anthropologists.
"This day we completely lost sight of land, and many men
sighed and wept for fear they would not see it again...(Fuson
62)" This passage is from the log of Christopher Columbus' first
voyage, and with it can be seen a typical reaction from sailors.
Why did these hardened sailors act in this manner? One reason
being, since they were children, they heard stories telling of
incredible beasts that lurked out in the farthest reaches of the
ocean. These tales can further be traced to the European mind.
Because sea mythology obviously centers on an aspect of
nature, how people viewed nature becomes essential. Usually
cultures took one of two thoughts on nature. The first being
that much of the natural phenomena were blamed on the gods or
other supernatural creatures. This trend usually reflects Greek
and Roman cultures with their pantheon of gods. It
also includes much of the time before the Age of Reason, or the
Age of Enlightenment. The second school of thought came to us
through the Christian Bible. In the Bible man was
given control over the animals and nature. Throughout much of
time, strange occurrences were seen as disruptions in
God's natural law, and obviously were the handiwork of Satan
himself. This helped to answer the prevalent observations that
nature was not always under the control of humans.
These two theories intertwine and sometimes it becomes
hard to distinguish between the two (Sale 76).

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~colum.../cwk/MYTH1.CWK

There are a lot of stories about the sea and fish in the gospels and acts! Why might that be?

mountainman · 07-01-2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

It's all quite simple in reality.... Jesus performed much of his ministry around the Sea of Galilee. Some of his disciples were fishermen. He proclaimed that he would make them "fishers of men".

Josephus paint a different picture of "the Galilaeans".
The lawless inhabitants of the region, fleeing both Roman
and Jewish authoritarian rule. Nothing about fish.

Pete Brown

Haran · 07-01-2006, 07:53 PM

It's all quite simple in reality.... Jesus performed much of his ministry around the Sea of Galilee. Some of his disciples were fishermen. He proclaimed that he would make them "fishers of men". A fish would have been a easily recognizable symbol to adopt. There is little to no reason to assume that it would have been borrowed from paganism in any fashion, and would obviously have developed independantly of any such pagan symbol if it did exist (Jews did not borrow religious symbols from other cultures very readily...you'll understand that after reading a bit more as well). Of course, the Greek word for fish, "ichthys", provided a wonderful acronym as well which obviously added to the popularity of its use as a symbol of Christ and Christianity.

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06-30-2006, 03:00 PM	#3
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Clive, may I ask about how old you are? You are using some VERY poor sources for your historical investigations. I would suggest finding a good college or seminary library or using interlibrary loans to obtain better sources of information and steer clear of popular historical accounts and websites that make fantastic and unbelievable claims. Just a recommendation.

06-30-2006, 03:10 PM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I thought I asked a question, and then posted from wiki and somewhere I googled a couple of perspectives I found! Are you saying fish and christ are not similar in Hebrew and Mary and Aphrodite do not have similarities?

07-01-2006, 02:58 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Is it not generally accepted that the fish symbol is earlier than the cross in the archaeological record? If so, why might that be? A secret sign sounds like apologia, links to pagan ideas looks far more probable. And what is the more controversial idea, a son of a god dying for the salvation of all mankind - the xian belief, or the mixing and evolution of generally available ideas into a new religion? http://chiosonline.gr/myrsinidi.asp

07-01-2006, 03:44 PM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Then how come a nineteenth monk finds a statue of aphrodite in the sea and assumes it is Mary? Mistake or correct identification? And did the early christians have a sophisticated enough christology to come up with the summary version ichthus, or is that much later, and maybe the gospels are a novel in which the mythological theme of the sea has not been properly understood?

07-01-2006, 07:53 PM	#10
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	It's all quite simple in reality.... Jesus performed much of his ministry around the Sea of Galilee. Some of his disciples were fishermen. He proclaimed that he would make them "fishers of men". A fish would have been a easily recognizable symbol to adopt. There is little to no reason to assume that it would have been borrowed from paganism in any fashion, and would obviously have developed independantly of any such pagan symbol if it did exist (Jews did not borrow religious symbols from other cultures very readily...you'll understand that after reading a bit more as well). Of course, the Greek word for fish, "ichthys", provided a wonderful acronym as well which obviously added to the popularity of its use as a symbol of Christ and Christianity.

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