Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 08-01-2004, 05:38 AM

Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Notice that Paul considers Jesus to have been 'nothing' , and to have 'humbled himself'.

This surely means that Paul did not regard the earthly Jesus as 'fully God'.

Notice that Paul claims that Jesus ronly eceived his name of Lord and Christ, *after* he died.

Perhaps this is why Paul can write what he did in 1 Cor. 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

As far as Paul was concerned, the 'Lord' Jesus Christ had not already been revealed. He had been concealed.

Gawen · 08-01-2004, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

This surely means that Paul did not regard the earthly Jesus as 'fully God'.

I don't see it this way.

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God, (this rather confirms it for me)did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (in human form?)

Something of a contradiction, I think. Jesus is in very nature God but not equal to it.

7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself

Kinda like an open coke that's been left out all night...flat. I reckon god just wanted to see how the lower life forms lived.

Quote:

As far as Paul was concerned, the 'Lord' Jesus Christ had not already been revealed. He had been concealed.

I'd just like to know how Paul came about this.

Chili · 08-01-2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Notice that Paul considers Jesus to have been 'nothing' , and to have 'humbled himself'.

This surely means that Paul did not regard the earthly Jesus as 'fully God'.

Jesus wasn't God at all but at best God-in-becoming if could humble himself and die on the cross that actually were the sins of his world.

Quote:

Notice that Paul claims that Jesus ronly eceived his name of Lord and Christ, *after* he died.

Perhaps this is why Paul can write what he did in 1 Cor. 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

As far as Paul was concerned, the 'Lord' Jesus Christ had not already been revealed. He had been concealed.

Nowhere in the Gospels is Jesus addressed as Christ until after the resurrection in Mk.16 (Freer Logion) and there never as Jesus. In fact, it was the keen insight of Peter to detect Jesus as Christ that became the rock and upon that rock the Church would be built.

The chief priests called Jesus and imposter and cautioned Pilate that Jesus had to die so he could become Christ for if he did not die the second imposter would be worse than the first. (Mt.27:64).

So the chief priests knew that Jesus was God [-in-becoming] and they also knew that death on the cross was the ony way to annihilate the sin nature of Jesus that overshadowed his "appearance as a man" (=God). The point here is that the dual nature must become one nature, first crucify the sin nature and later raise it into heaven.

The test of a mystic is how well he can keep it a secret

asymptoticgiant · 08-01-2004, 01:24 PM

if you like names...
I think this idea is called "kenosis" (also, kenotic theology). Do a google search and you can pull up some sites about it.

Sensei Meela · 08-01-2004, 03:58 PM

I think it might make some sense considering the 'Jesus as Adam 2' doctrine...

Being the Son of God [and thus having the nature of God] Jesus did what Adam didn't by accepting his role as 'humble servant' (what is here depicted as 'the very nature' of humankind), whereas Adam (or Eve, rather) sought to be equal with God [at least WRT his moral knowledge]. By relenquishing his authority and 'God nature' to the father, the son 'became in likeness and appearance as a man' called 'Jesus,' God's 'humble servant,' the instrument of salvation. It would be difficult to consider him as 'fully God' (who has All Authority) in this condition; I would think the ignoble death also suggests Jesus isn't 'fully God' in Paul's eyes.

Just an observation.

Chili · 08-01-2004, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Meela

I think it might make some sense considering the 'Jesus as Adam 2' doctrine...

Being the Son of God [and thus having the nature of God] Jesus did what Adam didn't by accepting his role as 'humble servant' (what is here depicted as 'the very nature' of humankind), whereas Adam (or Eve, rather) sought to be equal with God [at least WRT his moral knowledge]. By relenquishing his authority and 'God nature' to the father, the son 'became in likeness and appearance as a man' called 'Jesus,' God's 'humble servant,' the instrument of salvation. It would be difficult to consider him as 'fully God' (who has All Authority) in this condition; I would think the ignoble death also suggests Jesus isn't 'fully God' in Paul's eyes.

Just an observation.

But Jesus becomes fully God when Thomas exclaimed "my Lord and my God" after all doubt, and therefore also all faith, was removed (Jn.21:28) = post-resurrection when Jesus was both fully Christ and once again fully Jesus.

Jesus as "son of man" was the the very nature of 'mankind' and Jesus as "son of Joseph" was the very nature of 'humankind' (if there is such a thing). The "like god" (or Adamic) nature was the human nature of Jesus that once had usurped the image-of-God nature and that long lost image of God nature was reborn in Jesus and was nurtured to full maturity in the Gospels.

That the second Adam restores peace on earth is really a misnomer because the second Adam would be the "final imposter" instead of the peacemaker.

Vorkosigan · 08-01-2004, 10:33 PM

6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

"death on a cross" is thought to be an insertion.

Toto · 08-02-2004, 12:07 AM

There is a lot of commentary on this hymn, which is assumed to pre-date Paul (but why? Is this just an effort to construct an earlier Christianity, closer to the presumed origins?)

The Background of the Philippians Hymn (2:6-11) contains some interesting speculation on the relation of this hymn to Caligula.

Doherty:

Quote:

Myths of the descent and ascent of deity are often interpreted (especially in gnosticism and neoplatonism) as symbolizing the ancient idea of the fall of the soul into matter, its suffering and death within that base, imperfect world, followed by a reascent into its proper abode and state, an exaltation. The myth of the redeeming god, the paradigm for the soul's descent and ascent, guarantees this destiny for the believer.

There are clear echoes of such thinking in Paul (e.g., Romans 6:5). And the earliest uncoverable layers of Christian cultic mythology, such as the christological hymn found in Philippians 2:6-11, often allude to such a paradigmatic "descent and suffering leading to exaltation":

"For the divine nature was his from the first; yet he did not think to snatch at equality with God, but made himself nothing, assuming the nature (or form) of a slave. Bearing the human likeness, revealed in human shape, he humbled himself, and in obedience accepted even death—death on a cross. Therefore God raised him to the heights and bestowed on him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow—in heaven, on earth, and in the depths—and every tongue confess, 'Jesus Christ is Lord', to the glory of God the Father." (The NEB translation)

This pre-Pauline hymn is the early Christian epitome of the descending-ascending redeemer myth, and there is not a breath of identification with any Jesus of Nazareth. Three times does the hymn allude to the idea that this divinity took on a likeness to base, material form, but never does it say that he became an actual man, much less give him a life on earth. Instead, this deity descends to undergo death (some commentators, such as Norman Perrin, Dennis C. Duling in The New Testament: An Introduction, 2nd ed., p.61, feel that the phrase "death on a cross" is probably a Pauline addition, since it interrupts the pattern of the poetic lines) and is raised back to the highest heaven, where he is exalted. Note, by the way, that this divinity is given the name "Jesus" only after his exaltation following death, indicating that the hymnist knew of no previous life on earth under that name. (The term "Lord" is a title, not a name.)

08-01-2004, 05:38 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Nothing if not fully God Philippians 2 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Notice that Paul considers Jesus to have been 'nothing' , and to have 'humbled himself'. This surely means that Paul did not regard the earthly Jesus as 'fully God'. Notice that Paul claims that Jesus ronly eceived his name of Lord and Christ, after he died. Perhaps this is why Paul can write what he did in 1 Cor. 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. As far as Paul was concerned, the 'Lord' Jesus Christ had not already been revealed. He had been concealed.

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08-01-2004, 01:24 PM	#4
asymptoticgiant Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: in the Owl Nebula Posts: 11	if you like names... I think this idea is called "kenosis" (also, kenotic theology). Do a google search and you can pull up some sites about it.

08-01-2004, 03:58 PM	#5
Sensei Meela Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: AZ, u.s.a. Posts: 1,202	I think it might make some sense considering the 'Jesus as Adam 2' doctrine... Being the Son of God [and thus having the nature of God] Jesus did what Adam didn't by accepting his role as 'humble servant' (what is here depicted as 'the very nature' of humankind), whereas Adam (or Eve, rather) sought to be equal with God [at least WRT his moral knowledge]. By relenquishing his authority and 'God nature' to the father, the son 'became in likeness and appearance as a man' called 'Jesus,' God's 'humble servant,' the instrument of salvation. It would be difficult to consider him as 'fully God' (who has All Authority) in this condition; I would think the ignoble death also suggests Jesus isn't 'fully God' in Paul's eyes. Just an observation.

08-01-2004, 10:33 PM	#7
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. "death on a cross" is thought to be an insertion.

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