Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 10-12-2006, 02:42 PM

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2;&version=31;

Quote:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

...

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

...

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
...

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris Weimer · 10-12-2006, 03:57 PM

:banghead:

Toto · 10-12-2006, 04:55 PM

Malachi - this has been much discussed. Why the OMG ?

Malachi151 · 10-12-2006, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Malachi - this has been much discussed. Why the OMG ?

If you haven't seen it, then "its new to you"

I'm just late to the discussion apparently

Chris Weimer · 10-12-2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

If you haven't seen it, then "its new to you"

I'm just late to the discussion apparently

Sorry for the banghead, but my reaction is the same as Toto's. I'm thoroughly shocked that you never read the entire Psalm before. It's one of my favorites.

Godless Raven · 10-12-2006, 10:34 PM

Come on Malachi, don't you know that you are suppose to read and commit to memory every single discussion ever posted on this website before you speak? Common curtosey! I guess you and I have a LOT of heavy reading to go over. I'll meet you back in the forums in about 10 years when we've educated ourselves up to par.

Oh crud! By then there will be thousands of new posts by those that already know it all and then we'll have to read and commit those to memory.

I've encountered this on other websites in the past and it never ceases to amaze me when fairly intelligent people who claim to promote education attack anyone who "discovers" something they have already discussed.

Oh to be so great as to already know everything. :angel:

Malachi - if you are interested in more information on this Psalm and the research that the Jesus Seminar did in to the topic, let me know. I have an excellent video that touches on the topic as well as many others regarding JC.

Regards,

GR

yalla · 10-12-2006, 11:51 PM

I also am obviously one of the appallingly ignorant with respect to psalm 22.
I was aware of some of the parallels Mal has pointed out but not all, or even most.
But to get to the main point, what can be made of his OP?
Do these parallels suggest strongly/weakly/not at all that the crucifixion story is based substantially/coincidentally/deliberately/mildly on Psalm 22?
What does this suggest about alleged "oral tradition" [of stories emanating from a real live AJC who was involved in real historical events as opposed to the literary creation of stories from the mind of one anonymous person who read Psalm 22 and similar]?
Good OP for discussion Mal.
cheers
yalla

redhen · 10-13-2006, 01:20 AM

You left some stuff out that doesn't fit so neatly into a messianic story.
Here's a Jewish "counter-missionary" site I found that explains their side:
http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Psalm22.html

snippet: "The middle of the psalm is equally untenable for Christians. The psalmist does not say something like, "I'll bring peace and salvation," as one would expect from a self sacrificing god. Rather he says, "Save me and I'll tell everyone how great You are." (Vs 21-22 (KJV).)"

Jack the Bodiless · 10-13-2006, 05:00 AM

Quote:

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

..."a band of evil men"???

It was a pack of wild animals! Maybe a metaphorical reference to "evil men", but that's not what the text says. This translator is really winging it. And there's no "piercing" either.

Malachi151 · 10-13-2006, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redhen

You left some stuff out that doesn't fit so neatly into a messianic story.
Here's a Jewish "counter-missionary" site I found that explains their side:
http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Psalm22.html

snippet: "The middle of the psalm is equally untenable for Christians. The psalmist does not say something like, "I'll bring peace and salvation," as one would expect from a self sacrificing god. Rather he says, "Save me and I'll tell everyone how great You are." (Vs 21-22 (KJV).)"

Oh granted. There is a lot in the Psalm that isn't in the story, but clearly the Pslam was used as base material, plus we have no way of knowing what other form this Psalm may have taken, popular forms of it, oral forms, etc.

I think to argue that the Resurrection story in Mark and Matthew is not based on this Psalm, just because the Pslam has some extra lines that are not in the Resurrection story or because the theme of the Psalm is not exactly the same is foolishness.

How many people plagerize by not changing anything? Have you ever watched a book that was made into a movie, or a re-make of a move, or arewrite of a play? The scripts arent' exactly the same, they are changed, often on purpose to recast the old material in a new and updated light.

Importantly also, Psalm 22, like all Psalms, is NOT a prophesy, so one can't even claim that this is fulfilling prophesy.

If you take this Psalm and the "Mocking Account" from Philo, you can construct essentialy the whole Mark and Matthew account of the trial and killing of Jesus.

Philo:

Quote:

(36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas ... this man spent all his days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths;

(37) and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him;

(38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state.

(39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris!; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa [King Herod of the Jews] was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign;

- Flaccus IV ; Philo

The material from these two pieces of literature makes up at least half if not more than half of the crucifixion story.

10-12-2006, 10:34 PM	#6
Godless Raven Contributor Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cun City, Vulgaria Posts: 10,293	... Come on Malachi, don't you know that you are suppose to read and commit to memory every single discussion ever posted on this website before you speak? Common curtosey! I guess you and I have a LOT of heavy reading to go over. I'll meet you back in the forums in about 10 years when we've educated ourselves up to par. Oh crud! By then there will be thousands of new posts by those that already know it all and then we'll have to read and commit those to memory. I've encountered this on other websites in the past and it never ceases to amaze me when fairly intelligent people who claim to promote education attack anyone who "discovers" something they have already discussed. Oh to be so great as to already know everything. :angel: Malachi - if you are interested in more information on this Psalm and the research that the Jesus Seminar did in to the topic, let me know. I have an excellent video that touches on the topic as well as many others regarding JC. Regards, GR

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10-12-2006, 03:57 PM	#2
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	:banghead:

10-12-2006, 04:55 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Malachi - this has been much discussed. Why the OMG ?

10-12-2006, 11:51 PM	#7
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	I also am obviously one of the appallingly ignorant with respect to psalm 22. I was aware of some of the parallels Mal has pointed out but not all, or even most. But to get to the main point, what can be made of his OP? Do these parallels suggest strongly/weakly/not at all that the crucifixion story is based substantially/coincidentally/deliberately/mildly on Psalm 22? What does this suggest about alleged "oral tradition" [of stories emanating from a real live AJC who was involved in real historical events as opposed to the literary creation of stories from the mind of one anonymous person who read Psalm 22 and similar]? Good OP for discussion Mal. cheers yalla

10-13-2006, 01:20 AM	#8
redhen Regular Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 135	You left some stuff out that doesn't fit so neatly into a messianic story. Here's a Jewish "counter-missionary" site I found that explains their side: http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Psalm22.html snippet: "The middle of the psalm is equally untenable for Christians. The psalmist does not say something like, "I'll bring peace and salvation," as one would expect from a self sacrificing god. Rather he says, "Save me and I'll tell everyone how great You are." (Vs 21-22 (KJV).)"

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