LOon

We were all led down the path of indoctrination, which did/has assured us of the Christ's "historical existence". Suddenly we bump into "Uncle Pauly", the man who had his comeuppance on the road to Damascus. Let's start to dismantle dis' baby:

1

The bible attests to the “fact” that Paul was a rabbinical student under the tutelage of Gamaliel. Meanwhile, Paul quotes exclusively from the Greek version of the Old Testament. Only a Greek audience would have appreciated that subtlety. Gamaliel would have preformed most, if not all of his duties; in Hebrew.


1 (part 2)***

The first version is written in the third person. Furthermore, we find that, in the first two versions, the fellow travelers remain on their feet. They do not fall to the ground along with Paul; as in the third version. Also, we should pause to consider, why would Paul wish to write about his “vision” as if narrating the actions of a stranger ?


2

A personal vision does not translate into Universal Awareness/Salvation for all humans.

3

The city of Damascus was jurisdictionally independent of the pronouncements of the Sanhedrin, and the Jewish Central Authorities. Any document(s) issued by the Sanhedrin would have been non-binding in the city of Damascus.

4

The “conversion” on the road to Damascus has three versions. The first two contradict each other, in terms of the VOICE versus those who heard the [Voice]. Similar terms arise in reference to the LIGHT, and those that were with “Paul”. Also, the third has no mention of proceeding to Damascus.

5

Paul is rather glib about Christ being the source of salvation; along with a suspicious lack of elaboration about Christ’s Ministry.,

6***

There is the additional discrepancy which presents Paul as having been blinded {Acts 26:13} by “A Light from Heaven which was brighter than the Sun.” His companions were able to lead him around for three days {Acts 9:8-9}; being totally UNAFFECTED by the “Light from Heaven”. This casts suspicion on Paul’s claim that the “bretheren” who were journeying with him ever saw “The Light”.

7***

The patch of light mentioned by Paul, that no else saw, falls in line precisely with the Docetic Christ of the Gnostics. In retrospect, what transpired was, a light and a voice; no physical Christ that anyone's eyes could discern. Their conclusion was, that only those who were ignorant and barbaric, would be deluded enough, to believe that the corporeality of the Ineffable, was necessary; for [god] to accomplish whim or task. Furthermore, the Christ that was allegedly on Earth, possessed only a phantasmagorical body. It is unlikely that god would need to limit [Itself] to a fragile human copy. Reduced to spreading the message in one language; in an isolated part of the planet; in order to accomplish a Universal mandate.


8
In the third and final version, we are informed that JC speaks "in the HEBREW language". The previous two versions seem to consider that insertion undesireable. It can be spotted that this "conversion" has gone through several redactions; in order to produce version three.


Let's look at the following:

HEBREWS 8:4

4 Now IF HE WERE ON EARTH, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are those who offer the gifts according to the law;




1 TIMOTHY 6:16

The author of “Paul” has presented us with a thinly veiled Gnostic Christ. It is a rather puzzling statement, because it’s speaking of a Christ that is in contradiction to a living, corporeal; personality. It was a concept that the Vatican could not afford to countenance. One of the main reasons why the Vatican eradicated the Gnostics, was the Docetic Christ. It was a stumbling block to their fabrication; the Historical Christ. The Christ that could only be known through Gnosis, was a Christ that never walked the earth. Also, introduction of the male neuter concept (The Holy Spirit), was their irradication of the female neuter aspect (Sophia); of the Gnostic Trinity.


16 who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; WHOM NO MAN HATH SEEN, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen.



PHILIPPIANS 2:7-8

A submerged statement of Gnostic terms. A veiled reference to a personality that seemed like a man; was more like a semi-ethereal being.

7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, BEING MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN;
8 AND BEING FOUND IN FASHION AS A MAN, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.





We can readily spot that there seems to be TWO Christs floating around !!!!!
One that can be "seen", our "historical" buddy; the udder (hee hee!) the Christ of Paul. Enjoy !!!!!!

Chris Weimer

Why are you reading Paul through the lens of Acts?

What are you talking about?

Again, what are you talking about?

Is this more Acts your talking about?

And again, why are you reading Paul through Acts? The burning of Rome also has different versions. In Tacitus, Nero blames the Christians. He doesn't do so in Suetonius. Does that mean that Rome never burned?

Can you please demonstrate why Paul would have needed or where Paul would have used Christ's ministry, especially noting that a) the gospels post-date Paul, and b) Paul states that he got his vision from God and not humans?

...So...are you caught up on discrepencies? Is that why you're here? If so, you're probably in the wrong place.

The translation is misleading. See here for an analysis. And IF I WERE YOU, I'd try forgetting basing all my arguments on the English.

Most scholars agree that Paul didn't write the Pastorals.

Merely saying "male neuter" or "female neuter" betrays your ignorance and total lack of learning on the matter. There's no such thing as "male neuter" or "female neuter". There were masculine, feminine, and neuter, and they were grammatical genders.

According to Orthodox Christian theology, no man has seen the second coming of Christ. It hasn't come yet. And from the verse, it implies that a) Jesus is God, because God cannot be seen (according to the Torah).

How's this Gnostic?

You're a terrible exegete, you know that? !!!!!!

LOon

HEY CHRIS:!
I'm glad you see yourself through the lens of the office of self-appointment. ALL we have is ACTS. There is no mention of the "Second Coming" VERSIONS 1,2 AND 3 . That's YOUR take. SOMEBODY wrote the "conversion". You need to explain to us how ANY of the contradictions make the Acts statements credible. Let me give you a reminder:








(Version I)

3-7]
As he journeyed, he came near Damascus; and suddenly he saw a light from heaven shining round him;
And [he] fell to the earth, and a voice said to [him], Saul, Saul, why are you attacking me so cruelly?
And he said, Who are you Lord? And he said, I am Jesus, whom you are attacking:
But get up, and go into town, and it will be made clear to you what you have to do.
And the men that were with him stood speechless; HEARING the voice, BUT SEEING NO ONE.


(Version II)

3-10] I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia by birth, but I had my education in this town at the feet of Gamaliel, being
trained in the keeping of every detail of the law of our fathers; given up to the cause of God with all my heart, as
you are today.
And I made attacks on this Way, even to death, taking men and women and putting them in prison.
Of which the high priest will be a witness, and all the rulers, for whom I had letters for the brothers; and I went
into Damascus, to take those who were there as prisoners to Jerusalem for punishment.
And it came about that while I was on my journey, coming near to Damascus, about the middle of the day, suddenly [ I ] saw
a great light from heaven shining around me.
And I went down to the earth, a voice came to [my] ears saying to me, Saul, Saul, why are you attacking me so cruelly?
And I, answering, said, Who are you; Lord? And he said to me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are attacking.
And THOSE who were with me SAW THE LIGHT, but the voice of him who was talking CAME NOT to their ears.
And I said, What have I to do, Lord? And the Lord said to me, Get up, and go into Damascus; and it will be made clear
to you what you have to do.



(Version III)

12-18] Then, when I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and orders of the chief priests,
In the middle of the day, on the road I SAW a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, SHINING ROUND ME AND THOSE
WHO WERE JOURNEYING WITH ME.
And when we had all gone down to earth, a voice came TO ME, saying in the Hebrew language, Saul, Saul, why are you
attacking me so cruelly? It is hard for you to go against the impulse which is driving you.
And I said, Who are you, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus, whom you are attacking.
But get up on your feet: for I come to you for this purpose, to make you a servant and and a witness of the things
in which you have seen me, and of those in which you will see me:
And I will keep you safe from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you,
To make their eyes open, turning them from the dark to the light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they
may have forgiveness of sins and a heritage among those who are made holy by the faith in me.


If you can't find ANY discrepancies, perhaps you're due for a visit to your opthalmologist. Since when, did YOU become the final authority of an exegete's abilities ??? Imagine, you feel I should be discouraged, because you might see yourself as ever so much more erudite than the rest of US ?????
By the way, flattery will get you NOWHERE !!!!!!

Chris Weimer

When did I ever say that Acts was credible?

When did I say there were no discrepancies?

LOon

HEY CHRIS!:
At least point out to the rest of US where is the mention of the second coming in ANY of the three versions. The "faithful" foist these passages on the rest of us, pretending that it's the INFALLIBLE word of god. It IS up to us to THINK for ourselves. It's people like you and me, and the rest of the members, that might very well raise the people's consciousness. You KNOW that there are thousands of these little brain-teasers, that TOO many people take SERIOUSLY. Let me toss you another one:



2 Corinthians 12:2

“Paul” has some contradictory reality/dogma issues which are described by a sojourn to the “third heaven”.

2 I know a man in Christ("Paul") , fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one CAUGHT UP EVEN TO THE THIRD HEAVEN.

Remember man, all of us, that are aware of the BOGUS OPERANDI; should be working together. We SHOULD NOT be at odds with each other !!!!!!! Just think how much turmoil, ignorance, savagery, murder, near and total genocide, all those wonderful passages have brought to the world. Remember the trial of Galileo !!!! We can thank that great man for divulging to the rest of the world, the deadly farce/confabulation behind the "infallability of the choich" (deliberate misspelling).

Chris Weimer

When did I mention that the second coming was in any of those three passages?

You're in the wrong place if you think that you're going to seriously challenge anyone with these "teasers". Many of us here work on higher levels, use critical sources, work with the original language, view it through both higher and lower critical methodologies, and don't both trying to prove that it isn't the infallible word of god because a) infallibility is an heretical doctrine, and b) god doesn't exist.

Remember how the Beatles' lyrics via the Manson family brought about turmoil, ignorance, savagery, and murder.

I'm at odds with all ignorance, regardless if its from a theist or an atheist.

LOon

HEY CHRIS!:
You are truly a legend in your own mind. How do you manage to make statements in reference to ignorance ? You seem to think that you're on some over-view Olympus looking down at the ants. Are you in charge of all exegetes ?? If you have conclusive proof, for me and the rest of the members, that you're the decision maker of an open forum, then; I must keep silent. Your LACK OF decorum, reveals to me that you're a tad pompous. We (anyone), should be able to post what they have found through arduous study. I don't think that's a good analogy, comparing the lyrics of a Beatles' song to the quagmire of the "Bible". You're one amongst many, that may or may not have knowledge of a dead language. You're not in a position to dictate terms in reference to higher critical methodologies. Let me remind you: Thought IS FREE; it's not YOUR personal property. I don't mind, that you've taken it upon yourself to place your abilities on a plinth of affectations. I've placed my postings with respect, TO ALL members. Your behaviour does not reflect your capacities. Be more open minded. You ARE NOT in a position to bottleneck anyone; because of what you call "teasers". You don't HAVE TO play at being LORD OF THE MANOR. It's NOT your forum.You know who you remind me of, JP Holding. COOL YOUR JETS, JAKE !

Chris Weimer

I just call it as I see it. If you're offended, so what?

aa5874

Perhaps the real question is, who de-mythicisied Jesus? His birth as described in the NT is a non-event. Paul's spiritual birth, the conversion, is also a non-event. Many of his acts are non-events. Who demythicised Paul and Jesus?

It appears to me that is was the theologians and not the historians.

LOon

HEY!:
Humans, throughout their history, have had their existence muddled by myths. The greater question is why are we incapable of differentiation? We are unable to separate myth from reality. True, we have the various religious edifices selling/weaving their various dogmas; which makes it difficult to be free of the mental enslavement. The invisible pals in the sky. The "theologians", should actually be recognized for their very REAL powers of manipulation. Such IS their power, that historians have been sidelined by the "THEOLOGIANS". Playing on our fears of death, and what might happen afterwards. Priestcraft, is a rather insidious form of machination. It takes serious powers of detachment, intelligence, and research; to not be swallowed up by the horrid torrent of "The Herd". Group think. Imagine, how do we convince ANYONE that is either a victim of the machination, OR, an indifferent, uninformed person; that their mind has been bought and sold??? Even those that ARE aware, have to deal with the FACT, that the greater portion of Humanity DOES NOT consider the things we can deconstruct; as non-events. Consider us, and our little microcosm: INFIDELS.ORG

We continue to bandy about, in order to establish a hen pecking order of the savviest. Some of us ARE savvy. BUT, we are up against an edifice(s) of considerable power, influence, "history", pomp and circumstance. Its' pernicious effect, is considered as detrimental, fraudulent; by a SMALL minority of humans. A minority just as small, are those that are/remain undecided; unsure. This greater EVIL, has been touted as something wonderful. It IS an enemy of FREE thought. If given a chance, the "theologians" would turn the hands of "The Clock of Progress" backwards. They WOULD gladly extirpate intellectual freedom, destroy lives, ONCE AGAIN, if the power that it wielded in the early stages of its' history; was their's once again. We are charged with doing whatever we can, with OUR intellectual capacities; to prevent that. I ASSURE you, I'm not just considering "Christianity".

ENJOY!!!!