Naivete

Well I suppose I should explain what this is about.

First off I consider my self a weak-atheist/agnostic. I don't know if there is a god therefore I don't believe in a god.

I picked up a book last week at the book store and started reading it on break at work. I figured it to be no big deal because a lot of people read on break. The book I was reading is called The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read by by Tim C. Leedom.

One of my co workers came in the break room and noticed the title and decided he needed to engage in a conversation about god. We went though many topics like pascal's wager and pretty much the arguments I've herd several times by deist before it was no big deal and landed him in a rage. I got board of arguing with him and went back to my book. THis is where he slapped the book out of my hand and and told me I was ignorant closed minded and just don't understand. To make the story short he told me that I better not bring the book into work because it offends some people here. Though it only offended him and he's never even read the book.

After the weekend I came to work and decided not to bring the book because the majority of the people I work with are christians and I didn't want to turn this into a big deal. But it didn't stop there. All week this guy has come to break with me and started to make claims of archaeological finding that have been discovered recently that confirm the bible to be the best scientific historical document in the world.

I wish I would have brought a paper and pen with me to write them all down these claims just so I could see if anyone else knows what he might be talking about and how I should respond to this.

For the past week I've been searching the internet and for books on the subject and I've found a lot of the claims he has made referenced on the web but the problem is they all have on thing in common. THey are all Christian based websites or christian based books. I was wondering if anyone could point me to a good book and an online reference that would help clear up some of these claims.

Here is a link to a site that has covered a lot of the things he has made claims to. http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn039/bible.html I'm not exactly sure where he's getting his information but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a site like this.

Sorry for the long post but I needed to get this off my chest and this seemed like a place where someone would know how to handle the claims and situation.

Javaman

You can check out these two threads for some background:
Miracle Site! (merged with Sigh...)
Where's Ben Witherington when we need him? merged with Conclusive Proof of Miracles
Suffice to say, an important Biblical city turns out to have possibly existed. Surely it's an important archaeological discovery and important as well for Christians. I don't think it's necessarily helpful in any way in showing the veracity of the NT, though.

Naivete

My basic responce to these claims where that anyone could write a Fantasy using real maps and places and even incorperate real events into the story but that doesn't make the Fantasy story any more true.

Chris Weimer

you know, most HR's have policies that could get this guy fired. He is harassing you... I know in every one of my jobs that I've worked at, anyone discussing religion that makes others uncomfortable is against policy, yet bringing in a book like that wouldn't be. Your'e in the right. Go for it. That bastard is too rude to be allowed to get away with that, especially since he slapped the book from your hand and called you names. Typical...

Chris Weimer

Oh, and most of that thread is crap. I could go through it point by point, but then I might fall asleep showing how the whole thing is baloney. I'll let someone else who is a little more awake than I do that for me.

Jayhawker Soule

It's a horrible (and horribly tiresome) site.

It's hard to know how best to handle this guy. Inviting him here might be too edgy. You might, however, suggest that he engage more knowledgable people on some neutral site like ReligiousForums.com and let him know that you'll monitor the discussion with interest. He would not do well in either arena.

Donnmathan

Well, from your link, Naivete, I think he's more or less been believing half-truths. I looked through, and I saw a few points that stuck out...

* First...I hardly find it surprising that the bible got the names of many small towns and villages right, especially considering the fact that the natives of the area wrote it. That's like expressing shock that Tom Clancy got the names of 20th century American cities and towns right.

* I have a few books, including an anthropology text from 1990 and a book of mythology from the fifties that both mention the Hittite civilization as fact - and that's the first two books I thought to grab. I have no idea who the "scholars" they talked to were, but they must not be well read if they thought the Hittites to be "a fable."

* The names are not unlike the cities...it would be really surprising if someone writing about modern England got the name of the prime minister correct, right? So...I'm not really sure I see that much value in those finds.

The main thing is, however, the sheer lack of any real content...a few names, a few cities and that is the absolute proof? If the ArK of the Covenant were found, or some real proof of the flood, or any number of singular items or names (Noah, for example, or Jesus, even), then they'd have a bit more of a case. The problem is, quite a bit of evidence stands very much against them. A few major ones could be mentioned, to start with...


* Rameses the Second was believed to be well over 80 (if not 90) when he died...meaning he didn't die in the Red Sea. His first born son is believed to have died of blunt force trauma to the skull (if they've identified the right mummy, which they are fairly certain); in any case, there are writings speaking of him (the first born) leading armies and living well into his thirties.

* The Egyptians, Chinese, and several others somehow failed to notice when they were wiped out by the flood. Their writings went on, uninterrupted, straight through the period encompassed by the flood. I mention the Egyptians because they are fairly close to Mount Siani (sp?) - I think they would have noticed even a locallized event. Also, unlike the OT which only provides geneologies and the most vague of dates, the Egyptians wrote down actual dates.

* There is an interesting blending of several previous mythologies (predominately the fabled Hittites) into the Hebrew. Exactly what we'd expect to find, from an anthropological point of view, but not too good for biblical accuracy. The trend continued with the major themes found in the NT. BTW...this argues for a grandual taking over from within of the existing cultures by the Hebrews, rather than the wars of conquest spoken of in the bible - they might have fought a few battles, but it's highly doubtful they started that way.

Diogenes the Cynic

I think you should talk to a supervisor or someone in HR about the harassment (and slapping the book out of your hands was an assault). This guy needs to learn what the laws are regarding workplace harassment. You have every right to read anything you want, by the way, if he's "offended" that's too bad for him.

The debate over archaeology is really a secondary issue and a guy like this- a guy who has shown that he will become physically violent when his views are challenged- has no real interest in a debate anyway.

Having said all that, there is no significant event in the Bible which can be confirmed by archaeology. A few place names, a few kings and historical figures (but not any of the really important characters) and that's about it. I'd suggest reading a copy of The Bible Unearthed.


Ask the dude what the evidence is for a single miraculous event? Ask what the evidence is for the Exodus? Don't let him play vague games of overreaching inferrence. That fact that some city really existed doesn't therefore prove that everything in the Bible is true. The obvious comeback is that Troy was discovered to be a real city but that doesn't prove that everything in the Iliad must be factual history.

PoodleLovinPessimist

The canonical example is Gone with the Wind.

jayh

The city of Troy is real. That doesn't mean that all the gods and heroes of Homer's epic did all the things they are claimed to.