Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Baidarka · 01-03-2004, 03:05 PM

As the Governor said �I�m back.�.

I posted something about this before but I think it is key to understanding the sordid nature of the early Christian cult and is worth a second look and some renewed discussion.

Why was this ugly incident included in Acts?
Was it an attempt to intimidate more money out of the gullible victims of the cult?
Was it an attempt to explain away a current Murder charge against Peter and his goons?
Can well meaning modern people salvage anything good from a religion built on such a rotten foundation?
Is this a true story or a myth?
Does the vile nature of the story insure its veracity?

Acts 5

Ananias and Sapphira
1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"
"Yes," she said, "that is the price."
9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."
10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

Picture · 01-03-2004, 04:39 PM

I had always taken it to mean that the see two people were killed by the Spirit of the Lord for lying. But that's just me... ...anyways, you're not, as a Christian, supposed to lie to the Spirit, it's a rule I beleive.

Hazel-rah · 01-03-2004, 04:43 PM

Quote:

...how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit...

Satan did it.

And since God created Satan, God did it.

Ellis14 · 01-03-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazel-rah
Satan did it.

And since God created Satan, God did it.

I don't believe this makes sense, based on the bible, at all.

They lied about the contributions they made, so God killed them.

I believe Paul's usage of "Satan" was metaphorical, otherwise we could blame any sin on Satan. Moreover if it was Satan who made them sin, it would have been unfair for God to kill them. Also, even if Satan killed them, that wouldn't mean that God did it just because he created Satan.

Picture · 01-03-2004, 04:54 PM

I think that Satan is a real thing, an angel and he got those two to lie, but since those tow were the ones that lied, the fault is theirs. They payed for their sin.

Roland · 01-03-2004, 04:55 PM

The really ugly part of this story is the behavior of Peter. After Ananias is killed for his dishonesty, does Peter call Sapphira in and show her the consequences of lying? Does he warn her? Heavens, no. He hides Ananias' body from her, then asks her the same question he asked him, knowing full well what will happen to her if she also lies.

What would Jesus have done?

Ellis14 · 01-03-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Picture
I think that Satan is a real thing, an angel and he got those two to lie, but since those tow were the ones that lied, the fault is theirs. They payed for their sin.

How could Satan make them lie? Where is the biblical basis for the belief that Satan can directly affect people's minds? What is the point of free will then?

Hazel-rah · 01-03-2004, 04:56 PM

Quote:

I believe Paul's usage of "Satan" was metaphorical, otherwise we could blame any sin on Satan.

I'll paint this stroke with a leetle, narrow brush, but some folks take that sort of thing literally and do blame any sin on Satan...

Quote:

They lied about the contributions they made, so God killed them...
...Moreover if it was Satan who made them sin, it would have been unfair for God to kill them.

It wasn't unfair on its face to be killed for lying about a contribution? To a "Holy Spirit" you can't even see?

I'd sue for wrongful death, if it were me...

Ellis14 · 01-03-2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazel-rah
I'll paint this stroke with a leetle, narrow brush, but some folks take that sort of thing literally and do blame any sin on Satan...

It wasn't unfair on its face to be killed for lying about a contribution? To a "Holy Spirit" you can't even see?

I'd sue for wrongful death, if it were me...

LOL

Picture · 01-03-2004, 05:03 PM

No, it's more like Satan is a con artist, not a mind slayer or whatever. I think that Satan can put a choice before: to lie or not to, but in the end it's all up to you. That's why they payed for the sin, because, while Satan may have had a hand in it, these two actually did the sinning.

You can't blame Satan for any sin you make do, it's you that do it, but Satan may put that choice, ti sin or not to in your way...

01-03-2004, 03:05 PM	#1
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	Who Murdered Ananias and Sapphira? As the Governor said �I�m back.�. I posted something about this before but I think it is key to understanding the sordid nature of the early Christian cult and is worth a second look and some renewed discussion. Why was this ugly incident included in Acts? Was it an attempt to intimidate more money out of the gullible victims of the cult? Was it an attempt to explain away a current Murder charge against Peter and his goons? Can well meaning modern people salvage anything good from a religion built on such a rotten foundation? Is this a true story or a myth? Does the vile nature of the story insure its veracity? Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira 1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. 3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." 5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. 7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." 9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." 10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

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01-03-2004, 04:39 PM	#2
Picture Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ellsinore, Mo Posts: 15	I had always taken it to mean that the see two people were killed by the Spirit of the Lord for lying. But that's just me... ...anyways, you're not, as a Christian, supposed to lie to the Spirit, it's a rule I beleive.

01-03-2004, 04:54 PM	#5
Picture Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ellsinore, Mo Posts: 15	I think that Satan is a real thing, an angel and he got those two to lie, but since those tow were the ones that lied, the fault is theirs. They payed for their sin.

01-03-2004, 04:55 PM	#6
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	The really ugly part of this story is the behavior of Peter. After Ananias is killed for his dishonesty, does Peter call Sapphira in and show her the consequences of lying? Does he warn her? Heavens, no. He hides Ananias' body from her, then asks her the same question he asked him, knowing full well what will happen to her if she also lies. What would Jesus have done?

01-03-2004, 05:03 PM	#10
Picture Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ellsinore, Mo Posts: 15	No, it's more like Satan is a con artist, not a mind slayer or whatever. I think that Satan can put a choice before: to lie or not to, but in the end it's all up to you. That's why they payed for the sin, because, while Satan may have had a hand in it, these two actually did the sinning. You can't blame Satan for any sin you make do, it's you that do it, but Satan may put that choice, ti sin or not to in your way...

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