sschlichter

No one (including Tacitus) is talking about Jews and we do not really need Tertullian to know that Christ is a title.

You may not know who was called Christ in the Pliny letters.

sschlichter

Susan,

I meant to point out earlier, on the side bar of women. You will notice that in the Pliny letter, the slave women that were being tortured by Pliny in this text were called deaconesses.

Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses.

This was a leadership role in the earliest church. I suggest this is an example of the teaching of the early church. To the surrounding culture, they were slaves and women, to God and his people

(Gal 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female - for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

.

aa5874

But, your claim that a resurrection was implied is still false.

And, of course Tacitus wrote that the christian superstition originated in Judaea. This most likely refers to a superstition of Jewish origin involving Jews.

Tacitus Annals 15.44
You do NOT know who was called Christ in the Pliny letters.

Pliny did NOT give the name of the character that was given the title Christ and did NOT write that Christ had died or resurrected.

You claim that the Pliny letters and Tacitus Annals implied a resurrection is still false.

Doug Shaver

The point seems to be that it means whatever you need it to mean in order to prove your point. That is typical apologetic evasiveness.

jakejonesiv

Hi Andrew,

"ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat" followed by interpolated text concerning Christus.

"Chrestianos" was changed to "Christianos" but without any reference to "Christus" or "Chrestus." As E. Doherty has noted, the reference to Christus is the least secure part of Annals 15.44.

Jake Jones IV

andrewcriddle

Hi Jake

I may be misunderstanding you, but IIUC you were originally suggesting that our text of Tacitus has been modified on the basis of Sulpicius Severus. However your specific proposed change, the insertion of a reference to 'Christus' having been executed by Pontius Pilate, is not part of the parallel to Tacitus found in Sulpicius. (In fact the Sacred History does not mention Pontius Pilate at all.)

Andrew Criddle

Edited to Add
Hi Jake

From your response in another thread, I get the impression that you may be proposing a whole series of successive hypothetical interpolations in the text of Tacitus. Am I correct ?

jakejonesiv

Hi Andrew,

:constern01: I think I see where you are going with this. If certain of my suggestions turn out to mutually inconsistent, I will need to review them! Thanks for your patience.

As to this specific question,
Neither the text found in Tacitus Annals 15:44 nor Sulpicius Severus Sacred History 2.28-29 directly quote one from the other.

If there is a dependency between Sulpicius Severus and Tacitus, I think it unlikely that Sulpicius Severus, a Christian, would delete gospel material (Christ and Pilate) if he had found them in Tacitus.

Not necessarily, but there were multiple opportunities for mischief.

Jake Jones IV

sschlichter

Of course the origin was Jewish. you bolded the wrong part of the quote.

again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome,

Paul's letter to Rome clearly indicates that they were, at least in part gentiles,

(Rom 1:14) so that I may have some fruit even among you, just as I already have among the rest of the Gentiles.

I have clarified quite a few times for you that I am not defending a resurrection, I am defending an early belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Pliny / Tacitus mention people that worship a man killed by Pontius Pilate. I suppose it is possible that they were worshipping what they belevied to be the corpse of a man killed by Pontius Pilate, but I find that harder to beleive.

Once there was no person that believed Christ rose from the dead, there is early evidence that a growing number of people believed Christ rose from the dead, and there is overwhelming 3rd and 4th century evidence that many people believed Christ rose from the dead. I do not understand where the 3rd and 4th century Christians came from if the earlier Christians did not believe Christ rose from the dead. Who were they worshipping and being tortured over?

The early evidence that people believed christ rose from the dead flies in the face of the belief that the authors of the gospels did not also beleive Christ rose from the dead or were at least malicious and incredibly collaborative to their own destruction.

I would love to see a defense of the position that early Christians did not believe Christ rose from the dead and that the authors of the gospels among them did not beleive Christ rose from the dead.

~Steve

sschlichter

He seems to be alone in that. Everything I can find on the subject seems to indicate that this theory is not a good one. The Latin matches Tacitus and it would not have even been a logical sentence if it was cut-off where he imagines it to be interpolated.

aa5874

So, it was false to claim that no-one including Tacitus was talking about Jews.



Again you make claims that are not true. It cannot be found anywhere in Annals 15.44 that people worshipped a man killed by Pontius Pilate.

And it is not true that Pliny wrote that Christ was killed by Pontius Pilate.


It is mis-leading to claim people believe christ rose from the dead when the writers Pliny and Tacitus did NOT ever mention that Christus or Christ rose from the dead. Even after torture, as found in the Pliny letter, none of the persons claimed Christ DIED OR did rise from the dead

Your position is based on bogus information not found in the sources that you refered to.

Tacitus Annals 15.44 There is nothing at all to support your claim that people worshipped Christus or that Christus rose from the dead.

Excerpts from the Pliny letters to Trajan There is nothing to show in the Pliny letter that Christ died or was resurrected.