Phlox Pyros

I'm curious to know a little about the background of others here...

I think that reading ancient authors is the best way to learn about the past and what it was like. I believe the the Loeb Library (Greek/Roman classics) and the Pfaff editions of the Church Fathers are some of the best sources to read these texts in English. Other gospels/pseudepigrapha/apocrypha/magical texts, etc?

What early sources have you read that shed light on Christianity, Rome, Palestine, etc.? Feel free to mention cool stuff you learned from some ancient author and how it might have changed your perspectives. Also provide links to any texts that are online and any sections that you feel are particularly insightful for one reason or another!

I've read quite a bit, but nowhere near what I'd like to have read. I'll post some more that I've read later, but here are just a couple of names for now: Julian and Vitruvius. I'll provide links and more information on them later when I have more time and after I see what others have read. Should give us all a feeling for what others know and if links and references are provided, it should give others the opportunity to go and read the texts or interesting exerpts from the texts for themselves (making all of us wiser in some way or another ).

Chris Weimer

The sources are probably best read in their original languages as well, or at least have the original language nearby to look at as you read a translation.

Diogenes the Cynic

I think it's good to start by reading the NT in Greek if you can. At least read the Gospels. They're different in Greek than they are in English. I was surprised the first time I was able to stumble through the Gospel of mark in Greek at how informal and breezy it sounded in Greek as opposed to English.

Aside from that, I've read the Apocryphal Gospels and Nag Hammadi stuff (The Scholars Annotated Version of the Complete Gospels is a good resource), I've read Eusebius' Church History, I've read Augustine, I've read Suetonius and Tacitus and, of course, Josephus. Once it gets out of about the 3rd or 4th centiry, I start to lose interest a little bit.

Not really directly related to Christianity but I've found I could get a feel for the ancient world by reading books like Thucydides' History of the Pelopponesian Wars and Plutarch's Age of Alexander.

I've also read some of the Classical Greek philosophers- Plato, Aristotle,etc.

A lot of what I read was in college, though, and isn't that fresh anymore.

Roger Pearse

I think most readers of this forum will not be able to do so, however.

The important thing is to read the sources. To get an idea of what they say, a good English translation is best. Then, if we need to zero in on one sentence, and if we happen to have Latin/Greek/Hebrew/Syriac/Armenian/etc, by all means go to that. It is remarkable what you *can* make out in these, even without knowing the language. Machine translators can help a lot.

But I would not want to see people put off reading the sources because they aren't fluent in any of the above, and am slightly nervous that the last two posts in this thread might have that effect.

Once we know the sources, we can see at once what tripe a good many books in the humanities are. It will also mean that we can see the good ones!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Phlox Pyros

I think you're right on the money, Roger. But, thanks to the others for their comments as well. It definitely helps to learn Greek, as it brings the texts to life in a different way. Like Roger says, however, it is fun to read the texts and become familiar with them in English too.

Anyways, I have noticed that Roger has a great website to start with! Tertullian is one of the ancient church fathers, and Roger's website is mostly all about Tertullian. Plus, Roger has many other ancient church fathers texts as well (and some like the Roman Emperor Julian that I mentioned before).

Roger's Tertulian website...
Roger's Church Fathers...

Here are some great, general links that I have found to help get started. Pick whomever interests you! I'm interested to hear!

(Learn a little about some of the authors and the times they lived in and it will make it much more easy and interesting to read their works!)

LacusCurtius Roman Texts - Some of my favorite Roman texts are on here...Pliny The Elder (who wrote about history as they knew it approximately around the time of Jesus), Frontinus (who wrote about the engineering of Rome's water works...fountains, aqueducts, etc.), and Vitruvius (another highly interesting work on many aspects of Roman engineering...eg. acoustics in amphitheatres and how they were actually tuned and amplified using strategically placed bronze vessels to produce harmonics...incredibly interesting stuff! The Romans were much more advanced than we sometimes give them credit for!)

Perseus' Classics

Need a timeline for all these ancient authors to understand where they fit in time? Here you go, just such a thing from the Loeb Classical Library website:
Loeb Library Classical Author Timeline

Know Latin? Actually want to read some original languages?
Ad Fontes' "The Latin Library"

I have read much of Josephus. He wrote very shortly after the time of Jesus and there is even a controversial reference to Jesus in his works, as well as mentions of John the Baptist and James, the brother of Jesus!
Flavius Josephus' works

Ancient Jewish accounts of Jesus

On here, you can find information about each of the ancient church fathers as well as their texts.
New Advent's Church Fathers

Try this site as well for church fathers:
CCEL church fathers

What can you learn about when certain church practices first began? Was the concept of the trinity there from the beginning? Reasearch it. Was the concept of transubstantiation (ie. bread and wine becoming the actual body and blood of Jesus) around from the very beginning? So much to learn, and so much information out there!

I have read part or all of the following:
Early Church Fathers' Texts, the earliest I think we know of anyway (1 Clement, 2 Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas, Sheperd of Hermas - did you know it was in at least one of the most ancient, whole bibles??, Martyrdom of Polycarp, and Diogenes, Clement of Alexandria, Josephus (some), Suetonius (talks of Emperors...cool stuff), Eusebius (talks of church history, also cool stuff), Herodotus (most), some NT apocrypha and OT pseudepigrapha, Philo (some), a few Gnostic texts from Nag Hammadi, Tertullian (some), Ireneaus (some...cool stuff...early Othodox beliefs contrasted with "heresies" like Gnosticism and others, Epiphanius (some, similar to Ireneaus but later than him), Julian (last pagan Roman emperor...interesting to read his early beliefs about Christianity), Pliny the Elder (some...his explanations of the world are highly interesting!), Frontinus (some...roman water works engineering), Vitruvius (some...roman engineering in general), etc.

I think I have read some others, but I'm starting to draw a blank... Read anything different? What did you find interesting that I might? What sections?

So, who's your favorite and what did you learn from them?!

Phlox Pyros

I didn't think that the sources would be so boring. Hasn't anyone read any of these. Wouldn't anyone like to comment on something interesting they've read or if they've read any at all. This must be a pretty sad forum if no one can debate from primary sources.......

Chris Weimer

Many here have argued from the primary sources - what specifically did you want to discuss?

Phlox Pyros

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Roger Pearse

It is a bit baffling, isn't it? Not sure what to suggest.

You can look at my holiday photos from Libya if you like?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Chris Weimer

I'm still stumped on exactly what you're asking. There's so much in the primary source I wouldn't know where to start. Do you mean for this to be an introduction thread of some sort?

Sorry for my ignorance.