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Old 09-26-2005, 03:55 AM   #1
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Default Alternative Biblical dates for the Flood?

From this thread:
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Originally Posted by bfniii
oh lots of people think they can accurately date the flood anywhere from 2000bc to 10000bc. and some people say there was no flood. with such a wide range of opinions, history seems to be silent on the issue right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless
I note that you have still not provided any alternative theory. And now you're prepared to go for a "local flood" too?
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Originally Posted by bfniii
me providing an alternative theory is not necessary, there are several out there that i have alluded to. as of now, it is not relevant whether the flood was local or global. neither alters christian doctrine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless
I am aware of possible non-Biblical origins of a flood myth in the Middle-East: flooding of the Mesopotamian rivers, and the filling of the Black Sea. Are these the "multiple theories" you're referring to, or is it your position that an alternative timescale can be derived from the Bible?

If the latter: I could create a thread to explore just how an "inerrantist" could ignore the Bible's genealogies and come up with a radically different answer. If it's the former, I need not bother: this would be just another evasion of what the Bible says.

...So which is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfniii
both
This thread is to discuss alternative Flood dates derived from the Bible (i.e. I'm not intending to discuss historical events that might have inspired the Flood myth).

How can the Bible be re-interpreted to support a range of Flood dates from 2000 BC to 10,000 BC, rather than the usual date of 2300 BC or thereabouts? Just what are the Biblically-compatible options?
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:15 AM   #2
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Default Alternataive Biblical dates for the flood?

The Institute for Creation Research estimates the creation of Adam and Eve at 4,000 B.C. Based upon that estimate, and using the Old Testament's numerical geneaological records from Adam through Noah, I calculated that the flood occured in 2344 B.C.
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:12 AM   #3
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If I'm reading you correctly, then the answer is so simple as to be under your nose: the only chronological starting point we have is not found in the ancient text — it is found in bones, like those of the Cro-Magnon 1, Wadjak 1, or Skhul V, or even Ardipithecus Ramidus. Whose to say "Adam" was Homo Sapiens? Certainly not the text. And this has nothing to do with 'inerrancy', as if you're going to tell the perfectly capable readers around here what the Bible 'says'.

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Old 09-26-2005, 06:41 AM   #4
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The genealogies allow counting backwards from dates that are better-established, such as the Exodus. IIRC, it has been claimed that the genealogies provide a framework of dates from the creation to the foundation of Solomon's temple, but I can't remember where the relevant verses are.

The Bible says how old Noah was when the Flood happened. This isn't always the case: IRC, it doesn't say how old Peleg was when the Babel incident happened, giving some leeway there.
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:59 AM   #5
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Check Genesis 5 and 11. But the dates vary in different versions (Masoretic, Septuagint. etc.) Note also that some people understand "X begot Y" as "X fathered an unnamed Z who later became a remote ancestor of Y". This way, many intermediate generations could have been omitted.

The Temple reference is probably 1 Kings 6:1.
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Old 09-26-2005, 07:06 AM   #6
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I also wanted to add a more pertinent point (but one more debatable — please correct me, paleo-buffs, if I am wrong):

Modern Homo Sapiens has yet to be genetically linked with any preceding hominid — Cro-Magnon has a mitochondria DNA generic marker that is now extinct, strands of "human" hair were found in a Pleistocene age deposit in Oregon, and they are not found to be genetically related to modern humans, etc.

This, of course, would bring 'Noah's Flood' up to and around (if, e.g. Johnny Skeptic's use of geneology is maintained) 5,000–6,000 bce.
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Old 09-26-2005, 07:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless
The genealogies allow counting backwards from dates that are better-established, such as the Exodus. IIRC, it has been claimed that the genealogies provide a framework of dates from the creation to the foundation of Solomon's temple, but I can't remember where the relevant verses are.

The Bible says how old Noah was when the Flood happened. This isn't always the case: IRC, it doesn't say how old Peleg was when the Babel incident happened, giving some leeway there.

I've always been skeptical of using geneologies in this fashion: 1) Because they seldom show what apologists want them to; and 2) that is arguably not the intended use of ancient geneologies.

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Old 09-26-2005, 07:19 AM   #8
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Here is Pervy's list, up to the Exodus:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pervy
BF = Years before Flood
AF = Years after Flood

In 1656 BF, Adam is created
In 1526 BF, Seth is born to Adam (Gen 5:3)
In 1421 BF, Enosh is born to Seth (Gen 5:6)
In 1331 BF, Kenan is born to Enosh (Gen 5:9)
In 1261 BF, Mahalel is born to Kenan (Gen 5:12)
In 1196 BF, Jared is born to Mahalel (Gen 5:15)
In 1034 BF, Enoch is born to Jared (Gen 5:18)
In 969 BF, Methuselah is born to Enoch (Gen 5:25)
In 782 BF, Lamech is born to Methuselah (Gen 5:28)
In 726 BF, Adam dies (Gen 5:4)
In 669 BF, Enoch dies (Gen 5:22)
In 614 BC, Seth dies (Gen 5:7)
In 600 BF, Noah is born to Lamech (Gen 7:6)
In 516 BF, Enosh dies (Gen 5:10)
In 426 BF, Kenan dies (Gen 5:13)
In 396 BF, Mahalel dies (Gen 5:16)
In 187 BF, Lamech dies (Gen 5:30)
In 98 BF, Shem is born to Noah (Gen 11:10)
In 0 AF, Methuselah dies - presumably in the flood (Gen 5:27)
In 2 AF, Arphaxad is born to Shem (Gen 11:10)
In 37 AF, Shelah is born to Arphaxad (Gen 11:12)
In 67 AF, Eber is born to Shelah (Gen 11:14)
In 101 AF, Peleg is born to Eber (Gen 11:16)
In 131 AF, Reu is born to Peleg (Gen 11:18)
In 163 Af, Serug is born to Reu (Gen 11:20)
In 193 AF, Nahor is born to Serug (Gen 11:22)
In 222 AF, Terah is born to Nahor (Gen 11:24)
In 292 AF, Abram/Abraham is born to Terah (Gen 11:16)
In 302 AF, Sarai/Sarah is born (Gen 17:17)
In 340 AF, Peleg dies (Gen 11:19)
In 341 AF, Nahor dies (Gen 11:25)
In 350 AF, Noah dies (Gen 9:28)
In 367 AF, Abram/Abraham leaves Haram (Gen 12:4)
In 370 AF, Reu dies (Gen 11:21)
In 378 AF, Ishmael is born to Abram/Abraham (Gen 16:16)
In 391 AF, Abram changes his name to Abraham (Gen 17:1)
In 391 AF, Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed (one year before Isaac's birth - see Gen 18)
In 392 AF, Isaac is born to Abram/Abraham (Gen 21:5)
In 393 AF, Serug dies (Gen 11:23)
In 427 AF, Terah dies (Gen 11:32)
In 429 AF, Sarah dies (Gen 23:1)
In 432 AF, Isaac marries Rebekah (Gen 25:20)
In 438 AF, Arphaxad dies (Gen 11:13)
In 452 AF, Jacob/Israel and Esau born to Isaac (Gen 25:26)
In 467 AF, Abraham dies (Gen 25:7)
In 470 AF, Shelah dies (Gen 11:15)
In 492 AF, Esau marries Judith and Basemath (Gen 26:34)
In 502 AF, Shem dies (Gen 11,11)
In 515 AF, Ishmael dies (Gen 25:17)
In 531 AF, Eber dies (Gen 11:17)
In 572 AF, Isaac dies (Gen 35:28)
In 582 AF, Jacob/Israel comes to Egypt with Isrealites (Gen 35:28)
In 599 AF, Jacob/Israel dies (Gen 35:28)
In ??? AF, Joseph dies aged 110 (Gen 50:26)
In 982? AF, Exodus occurs (400 years after Isrealites enter Egypt) (Gen 15:3)
And, yes, 1 Kings 6:1 dates the foundation of Solomon's temple to 480 years after the Exodus. This is 950 BC or thereabouts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJD
I've always been skeptical of using geneologies in this fashion: 1) Because they seldom show what apologists want them to; and 2) that is arguably not the intended use of ancient geneologies.
Well, this whole issue is really aimed at inerrantists.
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Old 09-26-2005, 07:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benni72
Note also that some people understand "X begot Y" as "X fathered an unnamed Z who later became a remote ancestor of Y". This way, many intermediate generations could have been omitted.
I've seen this attempted, but it doesn't work. The Bible says how old X was when he "became the ancestor of" Y. This doesn't make sense, as either X always was the ancestor of the as-yet-unborn Y, or he became the ancestor when Y was born.

For instance: my grandfather either always was my grandfather, or he became my grandfather when I was born. He didn't become my grandfather when my father was born.

Edited to add: in the version I'm referring to, "begat" was replaced by "became the ancestor of". The somewhat more convoluted "X fathered a child to begin a lineage ending in Y" could work (as it's something that could happen when X reaches a certain age), but there is no evidence that the Hebrews (or anyone else) had a word for such a bizarre concept (which they then completely forgot about after Genesis was written).

It would also make the genealogies rather pointless. The author has gone to considerable effort to lay out a timeline, specifying information which is otherwise useless (the age of each person when he "begat" the next), and including nonentities, people who aren't mentioned in any other context except to "bridge the gap" from one Biblical character to another (a stage that could be skipped entirely). The genealogy also kills off Methuselah during the Flood year itself: the only still-living character who HAD to die that year, to ensure that only Noah's family survived. This implies that the Methuselah-Lamech-Noah section, at least, is a straightforward grandfather-father-son line.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJD
I also wanted to add a more pertinent point (but one more debatable — please correct me, paleo-buffs, if I am wrong):

Modern Homo Sapiens has yet to be genetically linked with any preceding hominid — Cro-Magnon has a mitochondria DNA generic marker that is now extinct, strands of "human" hair were found in a Pleistocene age deposit in Oregon, and they are not found to be genetically related to modern humans, etc.
What do you mean by "has yet to be linked"? Cro-Magnon is Homo sapiens, both anatomically and genetically, as were the 60,000 year old specimens from Australia. Whether Neandertals could interbreed with Anatomically Modern Humans is still an open question - there are skeletons from at least 2 different sites that may have been hybrids. If the hybridization happened, would that mean the flood took place when sea level rose during the last inter-glacial period?
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