Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ohmi · 05-04-2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

what was the point of Jesus's death and resurrection if we can all just be taught by god?

Jesus showed mankind that God assumes total province over having created evil - that ,although man logically has no responsibility, neither need we feel any responsibility - equally he somehow brought in resurrection of sinners for the first time, a rather necessary feature .

But , as Jesus said, he had only come for the House of Israel, he never said anything about teaching everyone the truth [in fact God guarantees that most will learn untruths in this life :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Jesus' resurrection showed men that when resurrected that we shall not be spirit, but flesh and bones :-

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

-so we know that death does not lead to heaven [as many claim] ...

XKV8R · 05-04-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

you cannot have a god without an adversary

why not?

i mean, if we're going to conceive of divine beings, why must there be more than one? why not just one divine being responsible for all of it?

Sheshbazzar · 05-04-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

When it says every knee will bow to Jesus and all confess to God then where is the ambiguity in it that you think that it does not mean what it says ?

Your "Version" makes that statement, I (we) do not accept your "Version" as I (we) do not believe that your "Version" accurately conveys the original.

Moreover an accurate interpretation of the statement must be subject to such limitations as are revealed to exist by other equally pertinent texts;
I (we) do not accept your interpretation.

Certainly on the face of it, and within the context of your "worldly religion" it does not appear to be ambiguous, yet worldly appearances are set to deceive such as are ordained to be brought under the deception.
To me, (us) it is as that fiery serpent upon a pole, in open view, a Deliverer even a serpent, provided for, and looked up to for deliverance, yet in becoming idolized, transformed into nehushtan, becoming a thing accursed bringing damnation upon the enthralled, now suited to destruction, and fit only to be burned and its ashes trodden under foot.
The ensample of old, standing as a warning for that which was yet to come, and has come. Even that "snake on a stake" which men now ignorantly do look up to, and bow their knees to.

The glaring faults that are evident in your "version" as it is worded, are instantly spotted and rejected even by little children of four and five years of age who have heard, and who keep the word of life.

ohmi · 05-05-2008, 11:44 AM

Assuming that you know that the will of God will not be denied, then how do you then re-interpret this statement by the saint that all will be saved , because it is God's will , :-

I exhort therefore,
that, first of all,
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,
be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority;
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[1Tim 2:1]

Toto · 05-05-2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

Assuming that you know that the will of God will not be denied,

We don't know that. You claim it, but you can't demonstrate it - it is just an item of faith with you.

Quote:

then how do you then re-interpret this statement by the saint

Modern Biblical critics think that this statement comes from a forger using "the saint's" name.

Quote:

that all will be saved , because it is God's will , :-

I exhort therefore,
that, first of all,
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,
be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority;
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[1Tim 2:1]

The NT is full of interpolations in the name of Paul exhorting Christians to be good citizens and respect authority, as all government comes from God. Why would anyone think that this is inspired?

ohmi · 05-05-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

Assuming that you know that the will of God will not be denied,

We don't know that. You claim it, but you can't demonstrate it - it is just an item of faith with you.

Modern Biblical critics think that this statement comes from a forger using "the saint's" name.

Quote:

that all will be saved , because it is God's will , :-

I exhort therefore,
that, first of all,
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,
be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority;
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[1Tim 2:1]

The NT is full of interpolations in the name of Paul exhorting Christians to be good citizens and respect authority, as all government comes from God. Why would anyone think that this is inspired?

Ok , you don't like that ,so perhaps try this one then :-

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

- Or this :-
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

- based firmly upon Ot prophet Isaiah:-
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Toto · 05-05-2008, 03:16 PM

ohmi - do you think you are proving something by quoting selected Bible verses? I don't.

Sheshbazzar · 05-05-2008, 03:22 PM

http://godkind.org/universal-salvation.html

Quote:

Universal Salvation: Spiritual fact or Satanic fiction?

The concept of universal salvation is making the rounds in some COG groups and some individuals in recent times. Is this doctrine true, safe and "good news" like so many seem to be espousing, or is universal salvation just another Satanic deception that has far greater implications if this concept is carried to its logical conclusions?

Let us briefly discuss the basics, and bring up a number of scriptures that clearly counter the universal salvation doctrine and create a stumbling block to the feet of those embracing and teaching such a damaging message. Please keep in mind that this is not a complete work. This is presenting a brief argument against the universal salvation belief system and which ask questions which would have to be answered reasonable and scripturally in order to promote continued discussion. Unfortunately, many who present this belief system can't or won't give an answer, of course, because a universal salvation belief says that it isn't necessary to convince anyone of anything because eventually all will be saved, and it doesn't really matter, in the big picture, what someone believes or does now.

As with all articles on this website, if there can be presented sound, reasonable and, especially, scriptural answers to these questions, then I am more than willing to be convinced. This is presented in "argument" format, for even God "reasons" with us and we are to defend our beliefs, and challenge... "test the spirits," to see if they can give an answer that only the spirit and word of God, and truth, can provide. I find it impossible to entertain this doctrine as valid without having these initial, basic questions answered in a reasonable way!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Universal salvation is the belief that God's plan is to save every living human being who has ever lived or will live, period. There are no if, ands or buts about it. They contend that God is stating in a number of scriptures that He will save everyone, and that this is exactly what He will do because He is God and can do whatever He wants to do. Yes, God can do whatever He wants to do, but this is only according to His law, His word, His plan for mankind and His nature. He can't go against those things because He won't.

The nature of the universal salvation doctrine isn't one that is clear and specific. In fact, this doctrine can spiritually damage every approach toward the true God that exists. Wherever anyone is on the spiritual spectrum, the universal salvation doctrine has something for them to latch on to, especially if they are already in weak spiritual territory.

There are four scriptures often quoted to build the universal salvation doctrine:

First Scripture:

1 Tim 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Will have = NT:2309 = choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to, desire, be disposed.

There is no "absolute" indicated by the Greek words translated "will have." It means what it says... that God's will, hope, desire is that everyone will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

to = NT:1519 = into, to, toward, for, among. 1. of a place entered, or of entrance into a place, into, indicating motion or direction; of ethical direction or reference; universally, of acts in which the mind is directed toward, or looks to, something:

This shows that it means a person comes to the point where they understand what truth is... a beginning point of some process. God's will is that everyone be brought to the point of understanding His truth and word, and THIS you can be absolutely sure WILL take place, for there will be NO excuse of "not knowing."

Knowledge = NT:1922 epignosis (ep-ig'-no-sis); from NT:1921; recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement: from NT:1921 epiginosko (ep-ig-in-oce'-ko); to know upon some mark, i.e. recognize; by implication, to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge:

Notice that 1 Tim 2:4 first mentions "all men to be saved," then goes on to mention coming to the knowledge of the truth. We have to first ask, "Who is responsible for bringing people to the knowledge of truth?" Of course, God is. One should then ask, "What comes first, being saved, or coming to the knowledge of the truth?" Why does Timothy speak in this seemingly reversed chronology regarding the salvation process?

Paraphrasing 1 Tim 2:4, "God desires that all human beings be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." If we were to take this just at face value, one would have to believe that salvation comes first without knowledge, but this is clearly not biblical as many scriptures show. Therein lies the subtle danger. "Salvation is assured first, then we come to varying degrees of knowledge"... and "any" knowledge of God and Christ is "enough" for salvation, regardless of how much error there might be in that knowledge and obedience.

This is a great excuse for false religion and for accepting those who are embracing it and missing the true plan of God. It encompasses all "Christianity" as being God's true Christianity, however, there are a host of scriptures regarding false Christianity where God warns us about it and to avoid it. Why would He warn us if it wasn't a threat to His people since all will be saved anyway?

What is this saying to us, in truth? To receive salvation... eternal life, one has to come to the full discernment of God's truth. Salvation is the end result of the process of coming to understand the knowledge of God... His laws, His mind, and our being fashioned into the image of Christ AS WE RESPOND to God and His spirit. This scripture, of itself, proves nothing about universal salvation.

Certainly not the exact words that I would use, yet sufficient to identify the problem that exists in such a simplistic interpretation.
You really ought to take time to read the rest of this artical, as what you have been proposing here is shot full of holes.
Your fellow Christians strongly oppose, refute and reject your faulty form of doctrine.

ohmi · 05-06-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

ohmi - do you think you are proving something by quoting selected Bible verses? I don't.

Not in the least, the bible doesn't offer itself as proof of anything...

However, like some people here, it does offer food for consideration, meditation, prayer, yearning ... and originally written by saints and prophets of God before religionists got hold of it for their purposes ...

ohmi · 05-06-2008, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

http://godkind.org/universal-salvation.html
You really ought to take time to read the rest of this artical, as what you have been proposing here is shot full of holes.
Your fellow Christians strongly oppose, refute and reject your faulty form of doctrine.

People with guns are always shooting them off and delighting in the holes they make, but they do not always find the truth by that destructive non-co-operative method ,even though they usually feel pleased with themselves ... the tools men use are all blunt and wielded by naked apes with ad hoc 'evolved' ideas that do not match all experience and intuition and are often shaped by 'fashion' in mere commonplace belief of the period.

As for doctrine, as I have now said several times, I have none, I came here to discuss some [to me] interesting stuff and for convenience state the most promising lines that I have found so far, but not to sell it to anyone [since I buy very little that this world has to offer my self].

As regards the eventual salvation of all creation from the eil that God created to show us that it doesn't work, well it simply wouldn't be Love not to do so ... thuis is then what the scripture explains, but I cannot quote the whole scripture here, so I just point at some of the highlights , and maybe a few people would recognise the Love that they seek and seek to do in the Love thus shown by God for His creation?

Personally I do not find setting people against each other in debate to be very productive in bringing people to wisdom, rather the co-operation of Love is what does the trick eventually... pressuring people's egos to entrench and defend their current ideas is a way to make wars , not an effective means to find the truth ... Equally God has decreed that the truth is a narrow path mostly alone, until the new earth and very few of us are permitted to find it before death... this should make us humble if we realise that we know so little, but we manage to mess that up too ...

As to the website you mention, there is nothing there which disproves the salvation of all creation, just an average collection of misunderstandings...

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-05-2008, 11:44 AM	#14
ohmi Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Roaming a wilderness that some think is real ... Posts: 1,125	Assuming that you know that the will of God will not be denied, then how do you then re-interpret this statement by the saint that all will be saved , because it is God's will , :- I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [1Tim 2:1]

05-05-2008, 03:16 PM	#17
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	ohmi - do you think you are proving something by quoting selected Bible verses? I don't.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.