Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ohmi · 05-03-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Do The Scriptures actually teach that "god is the saviour of -all- men"?

Like I quoted, that is indeed what it says, and there are many other places where it says so too, both directly and indirectly

Quote:

Then the Almighty and His spokesmen must have only been blowing a lot hot air in all of those verses that promise everlasting destruction as the fate of the wicked.

Or rather the wicked are 'destroyed' by death as the wages of sin and then ceasing to be wicked after resurrection [or by God's ever-enduring mercy]

Quote:

9. "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon Yahweh, they shall inherit the earth.
10. For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]. (Ps.37:9-10)

There is no doubt in scripture that God wins, and wickedness ceases and that the wages of sin are death, but hell gives up all the dead in resurrection even of the sinners from this earth and the many are saved even before the second death [Rev 7:9-10]

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28. For Yahweh loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. (Ps. 37:28)

Yes the wicked cease to propagate wickedness, that does not prevent God's enduring mercy ,but is rather just a precursor to it

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20. Yahweh preserveth all them that love Him: but all the wicked will he destroy. (Psa. 145:20)

yes, the wages of sin is destruction in death, but then the resurrection of all sinners

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18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev. 11:18)

Yay, they all die, but death has no sting because of resurrection even of all sinners

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20. But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of Yahweh [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psa. 37:20)

Yes they perish in death and the end of this earth, then the new earth and resurrection of all sinners

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27. For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. (Psa. 73:27)

indeed so, but then the resurrection

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28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28)

hell [sheol, hades] is merely the unseen state of the dead, and the life [soul] of the body is indeed lost in death, as is the body of all sinners at the end of this earth, if not before, but then all sinners are resurrected

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Well was it said; If you believe not the The Law and the prophets, neither will you believe the words of Him who rose from the dead.

I think that maybe you have read too much into translated terms and not taken the original meaning

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That you desire to see Satan preserved, and be found standing among the "saved", in an opposition to that which has been of old written and ordained for him by YHWH is evidence in itself of your willingness to pervert The Scriptures and the Gospel.

Rather it is the scriptures which state that God's mercy endures and that all will bow to Jesus and confess to God and it is you who somehow will not accept what is said so very clearly in them, which you thus choose to ignore and not to respond to, as if it were not written.

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-03-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Do The Scriptures actually teach that "god is the saviour of -all- men"?

Like I quoted, that is indeed what it says, and there are many other places where it says so too, both directly and indirectly

Or rather the wicked are 'destroyed' by death as the wages of sin and then ceasing to be wicked after resurrection [or by God's ever-enduring mercy]

There is no doubt in scripture that God wins, and wickedness ceases and that the wages of sin are death, but hell gives up all the dead in resurrection even of the sinners from this earth and the many are saved even before the second death [Rev 7:9-10]

Yes the wicked cease to propagate wickedness, that does not prevent God's enduring mercy ,but is rather just a precursor to it

yes, the wages of sin is destruction in death, but then the resurrection of all sinners

Yay, they all die, but death has no sting because of resurrection even of all sinners

Yes they perish in death and the end of this earth, then the new earth and resurrection of all sinners

indeed so, but then the resurrection

hell [sheol, hades] is merely the unseen state of the dead, and the life [soul] of the body is indeed lost in death, as is the body of all sinners at the end of this earth, if not before, but then all sinners are resurrected

I think that maybe you have read too much into translated terms and not taken the original meaning

Quote:

That you desire to see Satan preserved, and be found standing among the "saved", in an opposition to that which has been of old written and ordained for him by YHWH is evidence in itself of your willingness to pervert The Scriptures and the Gospel.

Rather it is the scriptures which state that God's mercy endures and that all will bow to Jesus and confess to God and it is you who somehow will not accept what is said so very clearly in them, which you thus choose to ignore and not to respond to, as if it were not written.

Seems to me that the moral of this story is that it it is fruitless to try to argue about matters biblical with someone who already knows apart from biblical texts what the "Bible" has to say and for whom the "Bible" simply provides proof texts that confirm what one already believes.

Jeffrey

ohmi · 05-03-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Seems to me that the moral of this story is that it it is fruitless to try to argue about matters biblical with someone who already knows apart from biblical texts what the "Bible" has to say and for whom the "Bible" simply provides proof texts that confirm what one already believes.
Jeffrey

Or more deeply one might even note that God undertakes to educate all flesh Himself, by his own spirit , eventually completely in all truth [Joel 2:28 + John 16:13] and the new covenant states that tevsaints will nt teach each other either in this life [Heb 8:8-12] ... all will be taught of God, truths which cannot all even be expressed in words...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

It simply demolishes most 'religion' , but hey, it is sometimes interesting and revealing to discuss the scripture, well I think so anyway ... no pressure if you do not agree

Sheshbazzar · 05-03-2008, 11:31 PM

Revelation 21:7 vs. 21:8, How late in the course of Revelation this contrast occurs.
In 21:27 there are "they which are written in the Lambs book of life"
Then consider Rev, 22:19, "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."
Doesn't read to me as a very positive promise of that reconciliation that you are positing.
This warning (and many others) would be unnecessary, invalidated, and of no consequence if everyone, including Satan and his servants, were destined to be "saved" in spite of any evil things that they might choose to do or say.

I'm sure that you can cook up something to contradict these verses also, so have at it.

Clivedurdle · 05-04-2008, 03:30 AM

http://www.thechurchofgod.cc/article...298463-39.html

Quote:

Pre-millenarianism
While there are many different variations of pre-millenarianism, the Pre-millennialist basically teaches that Christ will return twice before a literal thousand year reign. According to this doctrine, Christ’s first return would be a secret rapture of Christians—of both the living and those in graves. This would be followed by a time of seven years, when the righteous on earth (those who turned to Christ after the rapture) would endure a period of great tribulation. Then, Christ would return again with His saints to set up a political kingdom on earth. Finally, a second resurrection would occur—that of the wicked dead. At this time, the final judgment day would be at hand.

The Last Day
First of all, the pre-millennialist’s view is that initially the Christians, followed by the Martyrs will rise to meet Christ—and a thousand years later still others will be raised from the dead. This is not what the Bible teaches. Rather, the Bible teaches that all those who have died shall be raised at the same time. Jesus, in John 5:28-29, said, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

As well, Jesus talks about the last day, not several “last” days. He said, “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:39-40).

These references make it clear that there is only one second coming of Christ, not two or three. (See also John 11:23-24, Hebrews 9:28.)

Not an Earthly Kingdom
Secondly, the pre-millennialist thought is that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom in the literal city of Jerusalem and reign there, on earth, for 1,000 years. Yet Christ did not teach about an earthly kingdom at all....

It is important to be clear which heresy you hold to ohmi so we may determine the correct level of hell for you!:devil1:

Sheshbazzar · 05-04-2008, 07:58 AM

"Pre-millenarianism" is presently popular, well known, and widely accepted belief among the Fundies.
But what ohmi is going on about here is what is called "Universal Reconciliaton" or "Universal Salvation".

http://godkind.org/universal-salvation.html
provides a detailed analysis of the gaping holes in its reasoning, and refutations of its faulty teachings. Many other similar articles may be found.

As I said earlier, not so long ago, his fellow Christians would have quickly burned his sorry ass for preaching such a heresy.

Now many denominations are trying to become "friendly churches" and overcome their embarrassment over their former "hell fire and brimstone" reputations, and in the pursuit of attracting more members are becoming much more "inclusive" and willing to "compromise" what the Bible teaches, providing fertile ground for this and other such perversions.

ie. "Welcome to The Church of The Lying Bastard" :devil1: EVERYONE is welcome here, because all sinners gonna get "saved".
Come on down now, and let us help you to get acquainted with our good friend Satan (psssst. we now call him "Jesus", ya know)
"You will not die, you will be wise and live forever" 'cause our Jeeezuz just loves all sinners and wants 'em with him for all of eternity. :devil1:
Oh what a friend we have in Jeeeezuz :devil1: come on now sing it! :devil1:

Sheshbazzar · 05-04-2008, 09:37 AM

It is like observing and examining the the distinctive characteristics of various different but equally venomous snakes, one may have spots where the other has stripes, yet both have good camouflage and none are harmless.
This "Doctrine" or that "Doctrine", this "Name' or that "Name", This "Denomination" or that "Denomination", that subtil old sneaky snake always likes to have a good appearing yet concealing religious cover while setting up his ambush.

Ssssss...Ssssss... You shall not surely die, but you shall know good and evil and become as Elohim and live forever and ever......Ssssss......Ssssss......
Lissssen to my wordssss......lissssen to my reasoningsssss......Ssssss.....Ssssss, ......
I have a "name"......Ssssss......Sssssss......just recite after me;...... Jeee'sussss

ohmi · 05-04-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Revelation 21:7 vs. 21:8, How late in the course of Revelation this contrast occurs.
In 21:27 there are "they which are written in the Lambs book of life"
Then consider Rev, 22:19, "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."
Doesn't read to me as a very positive promise of that reconciliation that you are positing.
This warning (and many others) would be unnecessary, invalidated, and of no consequence if everyone, including Satan and his servants, were destined to be "saved" in spite of any evil things that they might choose to do or say.

I'm sure that you can cook up something to contradict these verses also, so have at it.

The spirit of discussion is co-opertaion to move past misunderstandings that have generated differences of 'opinion' , the scripture offers a promise that one can do this, that [if one goes far enough with it] that it is of no private interpretation whatsoever [2 Peter 1:20]

After all what could one possibly gain of any use by insisting that one was right even after misinterpreting God? ... I do not think that any of us is incapable of mistakes [and I have made soem great ones], but I do know that co-operation in seeking the truth is many times more productive than the 'locked horns' of egoistic debate ... so surely is it not most important that all involved come to the truth , and unimportant who sees and reports some aspect of it first ?

As we see then, the 'Book of Life' is updated , which can be to include or exclude , nothing final about it is expressed since it is used in scripture in relation to judgment day, and much happens yet after that in scripture , just as much happens after the judgment of the saints at Jesus' return... these are only steps along the way, stages in the growth of the kingdom of god from its tiny beginning in one man.

But when the saint says that God is the saviour of all, surely you cannot in any way think that he menas that God is not the saviour of all ? ... I just do not see how you do that...

When it says every knee will bow to Jesus and all confess to God then where is the ambiguity in it that you think that it does not mean what it says ?

ohmi · 05-04-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://www.thechurchofgod.cc/article...298463-39.html

Quote:

Pre-millenarianism
While there are many different variations of pre-millenarianism, the Pre-millennialist basically teaches that Christ will return twice before a literal thousand year reign. According to this doctrine, Christ’s first return would be a secret rapture of Christians—of both the living and those in graves. This would be followed by a time of seven years, when the righteous on earth (those who turned to Christ after the rapture) would endure a period of great tribulation. Then, Christ would return again with His saints to set up a political kingdom on earth. Finally, a second resurrection would occur—that of the wicked dead. At this time, the final judgment day would be at hand.

The Last Day
First of all, the pre-millennialist’s view is that initially the Christians, followed by the Martyrs will rise to meet Christ—and a thousand years later still others will be raised from the dead. This is not what the Bible teaches. Rather, the Bible teaches that all those who have died shall be raised at the same time. Jesus, in John 5:28-29, said, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

As well, Jesus talks about the last day, not several “last” days. He said, “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:39-40).

These references make it clear that there is only one second coming of Christ, not two or three. (See also John 11:23-24, Hebrews 9:28.)

Not an Earthly Kingdom
Secondly, the pre-millennialist thought is that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom in the literal city of Jerusalem and reign there, on earth, for 1,000 years. Yet Christ did not teach about an earthly kingdom at all....

It is important to be clear which heresy you hold to ohmi so we may determine the correct level of hell for you!:devil1:

It is God who will teach all men , not men :-

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

thus I hold no doctrine until spirit baptism [promised to all-Joel 2:28- but NOT received by many in this life!]

As to 'hell', you do deeply misunderstand by listening to men's tales , rather sek the truth from God [I have no fear of 'hell' whatsoever ,though almost all men have or will pass through it]

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

also I think it is sad that the spirit of co-operation is so lacking on these boards, that men have lost sight of Love so easily ... :huh:

Clivedurdle · 05-04-2008, 02:06 PM

Interesting - I was baptised in the Holy Spirit with gifts and fruit, but never mind, I now worship the IPU the FSM and dark goddess of chocolate.

Why this fetish with god - you cannot have a god without an adversary - what was the point of Jesus's death and resurrection if we can all just be taught by god?

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05-03-2008, 11:31 PM	#4
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Revelation 21:7 vs. 21:8, How late in the course of Revelation this contrast occurs. In 21:27 there are "they which are written in the Lambs book of life" Then consider Rev, 22:19, "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." Doesn't read to me as a very positive promise of that reconciliation that you are positing. This warning (and many others) would be unnecessary, invalidated, and of no consequence if everyone, including Satan and his servants, were destined to be "saved" in spite of any evil things that they might choose to do or say. I'm sure that you can cook up something to contradict these verses also, so have at it.

05-04-2008, 07:58 AM	#6
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	"Pre-millenarianism" is presently popular, well known, and widely accepted belief among the Fundies. But what ohmi is going on about here is what is called "Universal Reconciliaton" or "Universal Salvation". http://godkind.org/universal-salvation.html provides a detailed analysis of the gaping holes in its reasoning, and refutations of its faulty teachings. Many other similar articles may be found. As I said earlier, not so long ago, his fellow Christians would have quickly burned his sorry ass for preaching such a heresy. Now many denominations are trying to become "friendly churches" and overcome their embarrassment over their former "hell fire and brimstone" reputations, and in the pursuit of attracting more members are becoming much more "inclusive" and willing to "compromise" what the Bible teaches, providing fertile ground for this and other such perversions. ie. "Welcome to The Church of The Lying Bastard" :devil1: EVERYONE is welcome here, because all sinners gonna get "saved". Come on down now, and let us help you to get acquainted with our good friend Satan (psssst. we now call him "Jesus", ya know) "You will not die, you will be wise and live forever" 'cause our Jeeezuz just loves all sinners and wants 'em with him for all of eternity. :devil1: Oh what a friend we have in Jeeeezuz :devil1: come on now sing it! :devil1:

05-04-2008, 09:37 AM	#7
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	It is like observing and examining the the distinctive characteristics of various different but equally venomous snakes, one may have spots where the other has stripes, yet both have good camouflage and none are harmless. This "Doctrine" or that "Doctrine", this "Name' or that "Name", This "Denomination" or that "Denomination", that subtil old sneaky snake always likes to have a good appearing yet concealing religious cover while setting up his ambush. Ssssss...Ssssss... You shall not surely die, but you shall know good and evil and become as Elohim and live forever and ever......Ssssss......Ssssss...... Lissssen to my wordssss......lissssen to my reasoningsssss......Ssssss.....Ssssss, ...... I have a "name"......Ssssss......Sssssss......just recite after me;...... Jeee'sussss

05-04-2008, 02:06 PM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Interesting - I was baptised in the Holy Spirit with gifts and fruit, but never mind, I now worship the IPU the FSM and dark goddess of chocolate. Why this fetish with god - you cannot have a god without an adversary - what was the point of Jesus's death and resurrection if we can all just be taught by god?

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