Sarpedon

I suppose that this fellow considers the fact that most people consider the idea of animal sacrifice ridiculous and abhorrent is a fulfillment to his prophesy.

Before you start to mathmatically demonstrate that the likelyhood of anyone but jesus could fulfill the prophesies, you must first show that the prophesies were valid. (i.e. written as prophesies, not written after the fact they claim to predict, not already fulfilled by someone else and specific enough that they could only refer to one occurrance) It is the opinion of nearly all people on this board that many of the prophesies that people claim Jesus fulfilled fail these criteria. Many of Matthews prophesies come from out-of-context bible verses (the one about the weeping of the women, purported to be fulfilled by the massacre of the innocents, which never really happened, the one about the messiah being called a Nazarene, the one about the entering of jerusalem riding not one, but TWO donkeys) . there is also the one about "behold, a "virgin" (actually, young woman) will concieve and bear a son, and he will be called Emmanuel." This is claimed to foreshadow jesus, even though it was a prophesy that was fulfilled a couple of chapters later, and jesus was NEVER called Emmanuel. If jesus was the fulfillment of that prophesy, why didnt the archangel gabriel instruct mary to name him immanuel instead of jesus? Since the book of matthew and all the other gospels were written long after the events they describe, they could make up whatever prophesies they wanted.

The recreation of israel is what I call a self-fulfilling prophesy. Few people know that the founder of the Zionist movement (Herzl) first wanted the jewish homeland to be in Africa. (he was thinking Kenya, or Rhodesia as it was referred to at the time) He received little support in this. When others in the movement proposed Palestine, suddenly christians were very supportive...because of the prophesy in the bible. So I call it a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Finally, you who are so big onto prophesy, please explain to me why this one was not fulfilled:
MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

This of course refers to the second coming. He said he was coming back, and gave a time limit. The time has passed, and still no jesus. Why?

redzrx

The Zionist movement which started in the 1890s was world wide(reps from countries) with the sole intention of getting the jews their own land. Palestine was the first choice (africian countries were dismissed thru debate). The movement was buying up land in Palestine and immigration started.. some illegal. They bought up land in Palestine from landlords which in turn moved the arab farmers working on the land out.. (may have caused some friction). As the population grew (still less than the arabs) and towns grew.. the arab and jews had constant clashes and there own miltary wing of sorts.

It has been a while since I read about the Zionist movement but that was the just of it.. and alot of this was going on before WWI.


Mario

The Witness

This post will be long enough as it is…check out this link:

http://www.100prophecies.org/page3.htm

When you think about it, it really isn’t much of a challenge because major events concerning Israel are always in the news. The Bible says specific events will occur:

-A Jewish Temple built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
DAN 9:27 (by default: the sacrifices occur in the Temple)
2 THES 2:4 (by default: the antichrist sits in the Temple claiming to be God)
REV 11:1-2
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

-A man that causes the animal sacrifices in the Temple to stop.
DAN 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

-That same man going to the Temple and claiming to be messiah or God.
2 THES 2:1-4
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

-People being locked out of the economy for refusing to pledge allegiance to the "Global Ethic", which forbids religious exclusivity (it will be illegal to say that Jesus is the only way to salvation). The Global Ethic will be incorporated into the one-world religious, economic, and political system.
REV 13:16-17
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Note first that this is the same chapter in Revelation in which world government is foretold. The world’s greatest religious leader, who will cooperate with the world dictator, is also referred to in this chapter. This is significant because this economic plan is going to be used to control the people of the world both politically and religioulsly, and it will all be done in the name of peace. Because politics and religion have long been sources of conflict, it will be rationalized that forcing a degree of conformity is wholly justifiable in the interest of the common good.

-Two guys who will be dubbed The Two Witnesses are killed and their bodies are allowed to remain in the street for three days.
REV 11:7-9
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

-A coalition force (UN?) crossing a dried up Euphrates River to invade Israel. Turkey has been able to stop the river with the flick of a switch since 1990 (Attaturk Dam). Shortly after the invasion Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.
REV 16:12-16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
ZECH 14:1-4
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


Could you give an example of a non-self fulfilling prophecy?


Matthew 24: 15-21, 29-34
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
##################
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Maybe I’m not reading enough into it, but this scripture tells us that:
1. The abomination of desolation triggers the great tribulation.

2. Immediately after the great tribulation, Jesus returns to Earth to gather His elect.
I believe this gathering is the "Rapture". See 2 Thes 2:1

3. While we may not know the day or the hour, we can know the season. When we see these things (abomination of desolation & the great tribulation), we know His return is near... even at the doors.

WinAce

The Witness,

Your post was OK, but it could use some improvement. For one, more confidence and rhetoric. Don't just leave yourself open to counterattacks. Take the offensive. Make as many assertions as possible in one post (makes it harder to debunk them all). Ignore and downplay the debunked ones, and claim victory on the basis of the unanswered ones. Challenge the skeptics to prove prophecy can't occur. And so on.

However, I must admit your career as a Prophet is looking more promising by the minute. But lose the Bible. While claiming revelations from obscure verses in an old holy book is a good jumping-off-point for beginning Prophets, you'll want to make some predictions of your own soon enough. Luckily, this guide to formulating prophecy is here to help you.

Good luck.

Weltall

Once again WinAce, I am not worthy. :notworthy I want to frame that post. Will you be picking over some of Witness' posts for the next update?

Weltall

Oh, I've already got one of those and I've got the Antichrist holding on line 2. Don't worry, the EAC will fill you in on the details as soon as we can send the Black Helicopters over... at least we would if the EAC existed. Except that it doesn't.
Seeing as that bit of 'prophecy' failed 2000 years ago, I think you have just shot your entire argument in the foot with a shotgun. Have a nice day!

GermanHeretic

Israel:
When the revelation was written (100/120 A.D. ?), the Jewish nation was just destroyed, the Jews themselves scattered over the Roman Empire. When was the last battle, 70 A.D.?
Of course they desperately wanted their nation arise again some day. I am not surprised that that wish made it into contemporary literature. What surprises and impresses me much is that they followed that idea for nearly 2000 years, until it became reality.

Jesus:
So the Bible states, some Bible prophecies are fulfilled? Great proof. If I wanted to depict someone as the messiah, I would give him all the attributes needed and write them down. Today I would use Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V of course.

Jack the Bodiless

I've done that, and I still see no real evidence that the "prophecies" refer to 1948 rather than the re-emergence of Israel from the Babylonian captivity (other than the obviously contrived arithmetic of Grant Jeffrey, working backwards from 1948).

The Witness

To all unbeleivers,

What can I tell you? I acknowledge the concept of futility. You have all heard that Jesus is messiah. You all know the Bible says that the only way to salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus. Like I said over at Nightly, the Jesus story is true or it's not. It's still a personal choice you must make. So, as the years go by pay attention to what happens in Israel. At least when the Israel Challenge prophecies come to pass, no one here can say I didn't try.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

If nothing else, think of it as a contest to see which board will last longer

Jack the Bodiless

...And when they don't, will you renounce Christianity?