Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 08-01-2009, 09:42 AM

So I don't know that much Hebrew, but reading Isaiah 7:10-16 from here Isaiah uses the word YHWH where our modern translations render it as "LORD" but in 7:14 Isaiah doesn't use the word YHWH. He actually uses the Hebrew word for "lord" and not YHWH.

So who is this "lord" - that's not YHWH - that is giving the sign? Is it Ahaz himself?

spin · 08-01-2009, 10:21 AM

Isaiah frequently uses Adonai, literally "my lord", to refer to his god. In fact, if you look at 3:17 you'll find him using a feature of Hebrew poetry called "parallellism" which places the term "Yahweh" in parallel with Adonai, effectively showing that the two terms were considered basically the same reference. At 7:7 the writer says, "Thus says Adonai Yahweh...", using the two references at once, showing that they are dealing with the same thing.

No, Ahaz doesn't fit the bill.

spin

Self-Mutation · 08-05-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

So I don't know that much Hebrew, but reading Isaiah 7:10-16 from here Isaiah uses the word YHWH where our modern translations render it as "LORD" but in 7:14 Isaiah doesn't use the word YHWH. He actually uses the Hebrew word for "lord" and not YHWH.

So who is this "lord" - that's not YHWH - that is giving the sign? Is it Ahaz himself?

Isaiah 7:14 is fulfilled in Isaiah 8: 1-3

1 The LORD said to me, "Take a large scroll and write on it with an ordinary pen: Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. [a] 2 And I will call in Uriah the priest and Zechariah son of Jeberekiah as reliable witnesses for me."

3 Then I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son.

semiopen · 08-05-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Isaiah frequently uses Adonai, literally "my lord", to refer to his god. In fact, if you look at 3:17 you'll find him using a feature of Hebrew poetry called "parallellism" which places the term "Yahweh" in parallel with Adonai, effectively showing that the two terms were considered basically the same reference. At 7:7 the writer says, "Thus says Adonai Yahweh...", using the two references at once, showing that they are dealing with the same thing.

No, Ahaz doesn't fit the bill.

spin

This usage may date Isaiah as one of the first books of the bible.

The use of adonai (lit. my lord) replaced the pronounciation of YHWH during the exile. Isaiah often uses the epithet "Adonai YHWH" when reading this today we say "Adonai Elohim" instead of "Adonai Adonai."

When this change took place, the biblical writers no longer used "Adonai" very much.

This is discussed here:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...d=165&letter=T

Quote:

In connection with the Tetragrammaton is pointed with the vowels of "Elohim" (which beyond doubt was not pronounced in this combination); it occurs 310 times after , and five times before it (Dalman, "Der Gottesname," etc., p. 91), 227 of these occurrences being in Ezekiel alone. The designation "Yhwh Ẓeba'ot," translated "Lord of Hosts," occurs 260 times, and with the addition of "God" four times more. This designation is met with as follows: Isaiah 65 times, Jeremiah 77, Minor Prophets 103 (Zechariah 52; Malachi 24), Samuel 11, Kings 4; but it does not occur, on the other hand, in the Pentateuch, in Joshua, in Judges, or in the Hagiographa. Adding these 264 occurrences and the 315 just noted to the 5,410 instances of the simple Tetragrammaton, the word "Yhwh" is found to occur 5,989 times in the Bible. There is no instance of it, however, in Canticles, Ecclesiastes, or Esther; and in Daniel it occurs 7 times (in ch. ix.)—a fact which in itself shows the late date of these books, whose authors lived at a period when the use of the Tetragrammaton was already avoided, its utterance having become restricted both in the reading of the Bible and still more in colloquial speech. For it was substituted Adonai; and the fact that this name is found 315 times in combination with "Yhwh" and 134 times alone shows that the custom of reading the Tetragrammaton as if written "Adonai" began at a time when the text of the Biblical books was not yet scrupulously protected from minor additions. This assumption explains most of the occurrences of "Adonai" before "Yhwh"; i.e., the former word indicated the pronunciation of the latter. At the time of the Chronicler this pronunciation was so generally accepted that he never wrote the name "Adonai." About 300 B.C., therefore, the word "Yhwh" was not pronounced in its original form. For several reasons Jacob ("Im Namen Gottes," p. 167) assigns the "disuse of the word 'Yhwh' and the substitution of 'Adonai' to the later decades of the Babylonian exile."

The above deals mostly with the combination "Adonai YHWH."

Interestingly this combination doesn't appear in the Pentateuch which some have suggested were the first books written.

08-01-2009, 09:42 AM	#1
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Isaiah 7:14 redux So I don't know that much Hebrew, but reading Isaiah 7:10-16 from here Isaiah uses the word YHWH where our modern translations render it as "LORD" but in 7:14 Isaiah doesn't use the word YHWH. He actually uses the Hebrew word for "lord" and not YHWH. So who is this "lord" - that's not YHWH - that is giving the sign? Is it Ahaz himself?

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08-01-2009, 10:21 AM	#2
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Isaiah frequently uses Adonai, literally "my lord", to refer to his god. In fact, if you look at 3:17 you'll find him using a feature of Hebrew poetry called "parallellism" which places the term "Yahweh" in parallel with Adonai, effectively showing that the two terms were considered basically the same reference. At 7:7 the writer says, "Thus says Adonai Yahweh...", using the two references at once, showing that they are dealing with the same thing. No, Ahaz doesn't fit the bill. spin

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