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Old 03-19-2009, 07:51 PM   #21
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Oh now, boredom isnt my issue at all. Im am simply looking for a external evidence which disqualifies the Talmud.
I'm not sure how simple the answer is. From my meager knowledge it isn't clear if the Hebrew bible was originally written in Paleo Hebrew. If it wasn't, this would seem to indicate that is was written after the exile. If it was, the normal circa 700 BCE date is consistent. The paleo coins and R. Akiba existing simultaneously bother me though, just seems significant somehow, and deserves further study.

Like I said, probably there has been serious work done on this, but I'm a complete novice in this area and don't know.
As am I, hence this jumpstart..
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:07 PM   #22
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Most of us "old-timers" here have read hundreds of articles on these subjects, Google search would at least acquaint you with the consensus of most common scholarship on this subject.
Your OP didn't specifically inquire about what form of alphabet was employed in the original composition of The Tanaka, so I did not even attempt to enter that field.
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Old 03-24-2009, 01:03 PM   #23
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This might be of interest to some who posted on this thread, and I didn't see it mentioned in the discussion: Paleo-Hebrew was also used by the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, but limited to the Mosaic books, Job, and the Name of God. (Presumably because they were considered ancient and venerable.) The other texts were written in a variety of scripts, but by far the most commonly used one is referred to now as Jewish script, which had only been known to be used for Aramaic until the Qumran scrolls surfaced. Hope this is useful to someone!
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Old 03-25-2009, 12:33 PM   #24
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This might be of interest to some who posted on this thread, and I didn't see it mentioned in the discussion: Paleo-Hebrew was also used by the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, but limited to the Mosaic books, Job, and the Name of God. (Presumably because they were considered ancient and venerable.) The other texts were written in a variety of scripts, but by far the most commonly used one is referred to now as Jewish script, which had only been known to be used for Aramaic until the Qumran scrolls surfaced. Hope this is useful to someone!
Thanks Sarai, that's very useful.

Paleo Hebrew Talmud is a good thing to google. There is a discussion in Sanhedrin about the letters, but the sages seemed quite confused about which was first, etc.

This is quite interesting in its own right, but it is a very strong argument for a non Mosaic origin of the Torah and makes the unbroken transmission of the oral law idea quite dubious. These are hardly new revelations for educated people though, but still quite they're worth knowing.
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:09 PM   #25
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Thanks Sarai, that's very useful.

...

This is quite interesting in its own right, but it is a very strong argument for a non Mosaic origin of the Torah and makes the unbroken transmission of the oral law idea quite dubious. These are hardly new revelations for educated people though, but still quite they're worth knowing.
Hi Semi-open,

I agree with you. I, myself, have found the argument of Israel Finkelstein very persuasive. He places the likely period of authorship in the 7th century BCE, though he doesn't argue against the texts containing older legends, songs, and story-cycles. For more detailed discussion, his book The Bible Unearthed (with Neil Asher Silberman) is an excellent source. (I'm sorry, I don't know how to do an Amazon link for you--forgive me!)
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:17 PM   #26
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The Talmud may be much later than thought - post Alexander.

Anything earlier that is asserted to be proto - hebrew may actually be a dialect of Phoenician. assume nothing! Especially about fantasy factories!
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:43 PM   #27
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Hi Semi-open,

I agree with you. I, myself, have found the argument of Israel Finkelstein very persuasive. He places the likely period of authorship in the 7th century BCE, though he doesn't argue against the texts containing older legends, songs, and story-cycles. For more detailed discussion, his book The Bible Unearthed (with Neil Asher Silberman) is an excellent source. (I'm sorry, I don't know how to do an Amazon link for you--forgive me!)
I've read it, but let me try my first Amazon link:

The Bible Unearthed (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Finkelstein used to be considered a radical, but today seems pretty much centrist.

There was a discussion of creation ex nihilo on Chabad and a woman said you can tell it is true by looking at the letters in Bereishit. I asked her how that could be if the letters were different and she reluctantly mentioned it was visible in Paleo Hebrew. Apparently she hesitated because the alphabet change bothers the ultra orthodox (and well it should).

Just a day or so after that, this thread started... a Chabad rabbi would say that proves there is a god.
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Old 03-25-2009, 03:03 PM   #28
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There was a discussion of creation ex nihilo on Chabad and a woman said you can tell it is true by looking at the letters in Bereishit. I asked her how that could be if the letters were different and she reluctantly mentioned it was visible in Paleo Hebrew. Apparently she hesitated because the alphabet change bothers the ultra orthodox (and well it should).

Just a day or so after that, this thread started... a Chabad rabbi would say that proves there is a god.


To be honest, the change in the alphabet never registered with me until I started doing some "grunt work" for a Dead Sea Scrolls author. I was so clueless, I didn't even know that the alef-bet I learned in Hebrew school weren't Hebrew letters...at least not originally. But I'm trying to make up for my many years of ignorance now!

Cheers,
Sarai
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