number3

I guess this subject has been covered a few times, but it is without doubt the hardest point to argue against Theism as people are adamant that some have been fufilled.

eg.

"the fact of the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-27 alone is more than enough to disprove atheism all by itself"

Is something regualry quoted at me. I have read on this site that not one single prophecy has been fufilled. Yet there seem to be so many!

So can Thesists give me an example of a biblical prophecy that has been fufilled, and atheists explain why this is not true.



Number#3

spin

Daniel 9:24-27 is something that is completely ballsed up by xians because they have never understood what the passage is about.

25 deals with the period of time from the approval af the rebuilding of Jerusalem (at the time of the return from exile): from that time till the arrival of the priest Jeshua, there are seven weeks of years, ie 49 years.

26 deals with the strife that came with the rule of Antiochus IV (the prince), when sixty-two weeks later, the priest Onias III (the anointed one) is cut off, ie removed from office (and Antiochus eventually appoints Menelaus as high priest and this priest rules over the desecration of the temple through his abuses).

27 deals with the three or four years of "peaceful" rule by Menelaus followed by a similar period of persecution of the Jews under Antiochus, which included the stopping of Jewish sacrifices in the temple and the setting up of worship of Zeus in the temple (the abomination of desolation). (See 2 Macc 6:1-2)

For a xian to claim to understand Dan 9:24-27 as related to Jesus is an admission of total ignorance.

Daniel 7-12 deals with the same materials in various ways.

Daniel 7 is mainly interested in the persecution under Antiochus, the little horn of the elephant (4th beast), a symbol of the Seleucid empire in Syria which had gained control of Jerusalem circa 200 BCE. Antiochus will "(7:25) speak words against the most high, shall wear out the holy ones of the most high, and shall attempt to change the sacred seasons and the law, and they shall be given into his power for a time (=1), times (=2) and a half a time (totalling 3 and a half years, see 9:27)". This is when the one like a son of man appears riding on the clouds up to heaven and everything is rosy again.

Daniel 8 gives us the little horn once again which once again attacks the Jews and pollutes the temple. And Daniel 11 eventually describes the last king of the north who sweeps away the prince of the covenant (Onias III, the anointed one of 9:26), and whose forces abolish sacrifices and pollute the temple 11:31.

Most xians simply don't understand Daniel. They have been incapacitated by their trust in the ignorance of early xian writers who knew nothing of the context in which Daniel was written and confabulated new meanings from the text.

Most xian prophecies are based on the decontextualisation of the source of the "prophecy" -- as the statements used actually refer to something from the time of the original writing, the significance of which context is lost on the commentators.

The problem for you is that most xians have been indoctrinated to accept the reinterpretation of the "prophecies" and you need to be able to re-contextualise them, ie know where they come from and how they were originally used.

Take the "prophecy" of the virgin birth ripped out of Isaiah 7:14. The context is the coming of Assyria and the destruction that they bring. The Hebrew text says nothing of a virgin (the original Hebrew word is simply "young woman"); and she is already "with child", ie pregnant. Before "the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good (ie gain an age permitting understanding of the world), the land... will be deserted."

Time and time again these "prophecies" are derived by decontextualisation and consequent misunderstanding.


spin

Mageth

The best explanation I've found for the supposed fulfilled "prophecies" of the NT, particulary around the life of Jesus, is the Jewish tradition of midrash, which was used by the Gospel writers (thanks Bishop Spong). Basically, midrash was a Jewish practice of incorporating elements/motifs from Jewish religious tradition into new writings. There are many examples of midrash to be found in the Gospels. With the gentilization of the Church, understanding of midrash disappeared, resulting in the literal interpretation of the events surrounding Jesus' life as described in the Gospels, and the resulting interpretation of many of the events (e.g. the virgin birth) as being prophecied by the OT, when in fact these were OT elements midrashed into the Jesus myth to "fit" him into Jewish tradition.

Read John Shelby Spong's Resurrection: Myth or Reality? for an excellent discussion of midrash and its practice by the NT writers.

Amlodhi

Maybe you meant this to be from the religious perspective, but I was afraid it might be confusing to some. Daniel 9:25 says nothing about a priest "Jeshua". It says, ". . .to mashiach nagiyd", i.e. "to an annointed leader". (Aside to number3: "nagiyd" (leader) is translated as "Prince" in the KJV and presumptuously capitalized.)

Spot on.


Namaste'

Amlodhi

spin

You are right that the text doesn't mention the high priest Yeshua, also that it says M$YX NGYD, "anointed leader". First I must say that in the post-exilic theocratic city-state of Jerusalem, the high priest was leader of the community, and, being a high priest, he was necessarily anointed. Zech 6:11-12 talks about his "incoronation".

Jewish tradition has it that Sheshbazzar led the return from Babylon under the auspices of Persian king Cyrus (Ezr 1:11) -- the "word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" (Dan 9:25a). I was some time later, in the reign of Darius I, that the high priest Yeshua, along with Zerubbabel, began his efforts for the faith.

So, that the anointed leader is the high priest Yeshua, while not stated in the text, seems earmarked by the reference to the time after the restoration of Jerusalem and the other indications.


spin

The Admiral

Number 3

I don't know why you should have and trouble with those verses. Why, they are just as clear as Nostradamus.

My favorite from Daniel is the first line of 12:8, "And I heard, but I understood not". In the margin I have written, you to Daniel.

The Admiral

number3

I don't have trouble with those verses, just making an example. However no one has answered my OP yet. People have looked at the quoted verse and refuted it in detail, but they haven't (theists) provided a prophecy that has been fufilled......

still waiting.......

Doctor X

. . . and you will wait a very long time.

You may receive claims, as evidenced in other threads, that "hundreds" of prophecies have been fulfilled. Some of the texts are translated in order to reflect this bias to fulfill prophecy. However, each one has been examined and shown to be something else entirely.

--J.D.