Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 03-16-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

There is one Ugaritic text which seems to indicate that among the inhabitants of Ugarit, Yahweh was viewed as another son of El. KTU 1.1 IV 14 says:

sm . bny . yw . ilt

"The name of the son of god, Yahweh."

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit, though not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El.

I wanted to point out a couple of things to those wanting to separate Yahweh into two different parts, or the shamanists, or whatever else you're holding on to. Yahweh was merely a god, nothing more, both to the Ancient Hebrews and surrounding cultures.

My question to the more knowledgable, where do currecnt speculation places the origin of the God Yahweh?

Anat · 03-16-2005, 08:01 PM

I must say, if the transcription of the Ugaritic text is accurate, the syntax looks strange to me. I would expect the word meaning 'El' to follow immediately after bny if the phrase discusses sons of El - unless sentence structure in Ugaritic is very different from that of later Semitic languages.

spin · 03-17-2005, 12:52 AM

The last time this fragment came up I responded here. The same problem exists. I didn't have the context then and I still don't to be able to say anything more. Perhaps if someone could cough up a little more of the original text we might be able to bluff our way through this.

spin

Celsus · 03-17-2005, 02:42 AM

Mark Smith has this footnote from The Early History of God:

Quote:

The words rbt, "lady" (literally, "great one," marked with a feminine ending) and 'lt, "goddess," are regular, though not exclusive, titles of Asherah in the Ugaritic texts[32], and these epithets in which the Lachish ewer probably refer to her as well. An arrowhead from El-Khadr near Bethlehem dating to ca. 1100 reads bn `nt, "son of Anat."

32. Cross, "Evolution of the Proto-Canaanite Alphabet," 20 n.17. In CTA 3.2 (KTU 1.3 II).18, 'ilt refers to the goddess Anat; otherwise it refers to Athirat (1.4[1.1 IV].14; 3.5.45 = 1.3 V 37; 4.1.8 = 1.4 I 7; 4.4[1.4 IV].49; 6.1[1.61].40; 15.3[1.15 III].26; 14.4.198, 202 = 1.14 IV 35, 39). A neo-Punic inscription bears a dedication lhrbt l'lt, "to the Lady, the Goddess" (G.A. Cook, A Textbook of North Semitic Inscriptions [Oxford: Clarendon, 1903], 158, cf. 135). See also the name Abdi-Ashirta (meaning "servant of Asherah") of Amurru in the EA letters (see B. Halpern, The Emergence of Israel in Canaan, SBLMS 29 [Chico, CA: Scholars, 1983], 58-62, 69-78).

(my emphasis, p. 29)

For a translation of those acronyms, CTA (A. Herdner, Corpus des tablettes en cunéiformes alphabétiques découvertes à Ras Shamra-Ugarit de 1929 à 1939, Mission de Ras Shamra 10, Paris: Imprimerie Nationale, 1963) and KTU (M. Dietrich, O. Loretz, J. Sanmartín, Die Keilalphabetischen Texte aus Ugarit, Alter Orient und Altes Testament (AOAT sheesh, more acronyms), 24/1, Kevelaer: Verlag Butzon & Bercker; Neukirchen-Vluyn: Neukirchener, 1976) are different translations, though the text divisions listed by KTU are generally considered better.

Anyway, there seems to be a very wide divergence on the translation between the two, but I'm willing to trust Smith. In other words, 'ilt should be understood as a feminine goddess, and secondly, that makes no sense at all of the phoenicia.org translation.

Joel

spin · 03-17-2005, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

'ilt should be understood as a feminine goddess, and secondly, that makes no sense at all of the phoenicia.org translation.

Yeah. That was my take nearly a year ago!?

And let me add, Smith is uncharacteristically unhelpful.

Then, I did a search for "sm . bny . yw . ilt" and every site that came up was a bible interpretation site. :huh:
Where can a poisson* get some decent information 'round 'ere?

spin

* Brooklynese for "individual"

Celsus · 03-17-2005, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Where can a poisson* get some decent information 'round 'ere?

Hm. Maybe I can hook you up with something.

Joel

Celsus · 03-17-2005, 05:35 AM

Oh yeah, and you know how šm b`l was also a title for Astarte? Puts a whole different slant on prophets doing the deed in the name of the Lord.

Joel

spin · 03-17-2005, 05:36 AM

Knock it off with the fishy barbs.

Celsus · 03-17-2005, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Knock it off with the fishy barbs.

Oh my Cod! People are so sensitive these days. Is it that spin despisces me? Was I out of plaice? Surely it's all a matter of scale.

spin · 03-17-2005, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

Oh my Cod! People are so sensitive these days. Is it that spin despisces me? Was I out of plaice? Surely it's all a matter of scale.

Who would've guessed that Celsus would take the bait? Bit on the provocation hook, line and sinker. And here we see him floundering about like a fish out of water, like a lost sole.

That is no country for old men. The young
In one another's arms, birds in the trees -
Those dying generations - at their song,
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas,
Fish, flesh, or fowl, commend all summer long
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-16-2005, 08:01 PM	#2
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	I must say, if the transcription of the Ugaritic text is accurate, the syntax looks strange to me. I would expect the word meaning 'El' to follow immediately after bny if the phrase discusses sons of El - unless sentence structure in Ugaritic is very different from that of later Semitic languages.

03-17-2005, 12:52 AM	#3
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	The last time this fragment came up I responded here. The same problem exists. I didn't have the context then and I still don't to be able to say anything more. Perhaps if someone could cough up a little more of the original text we might be able to bluff our way through this. spin

03-17-2005, 05:35 AM	#7
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	Oh yeah, and you know how šm b`l was also a title for Astarte? Puts a whole different slant on prophets doing the deed in the name of the Lord. Joel

03-17-2005, 05:36 AM	#8
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Knock it off with the fishy barbs.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.