Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hero · 08-02-2006, 08:19 AM

Just read the following site, and I am astonished!!

http://www.fivedoves.com/tng/magic/magicthatisjesus.htm

http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/ge...s-888-8880.htm

http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_888.asp

Even you don't believe that bible is God's words... you got to admit that the author behind is really very intelligent... to a level a genius mathematician I would say... though I know it is may be possible to invent your own words with mathematics in it, but if you want to get to the level of that of bible... you got to spend a lot of time and efforts in it... and it is quite hard to argue all those numbers are just results of randomness... you can check out the remaining articles of those sites too... very astonishing i would say...

what do you guys think? anyone got good criticism on it? any other websites with opposite view on that or mathematically demostrate that the phenomenon is easily reproducible?

NB: the above sites are not bible code or the alphabets games of ivan panin, which are largely regarded as invalid by both christians and atheist.... for the above sites, they are purely mathematics!!

Julian · 08-02-2006, 09:04 AM

I doubt anyone would want to waste time refuting this kind of silliness. It is not hard to find numerical patterns, especially when you get to pick and choose what numbers to use and when and how. Notice how he uses the Greek numerals when it suits him but then switches to a straight numbering? I guess Digamma and the others just weren't convenient...

Julian

Hero · 08-02-2006, 09:19 AM

u don't even understand what languages is bible using... bible use Greeks in some scrolls, and Hebrews in other scrolls... and these ancient languages are used to represent numerical value, which are quite specificial! [English language is not!]

see following links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numeral

"It is not hard to find numerical patterns, especially when you get to pick and choose what numbers to use and when and how"
if u really think it is so easy to find a patten similar to the links above, please show me; evidence speaks louder than words.

<edit>if u don't know anything... have u read up the above sites and think? do u even understand the mathematics behind? or have u been to a school and learn basic mathematics?? <edit>

Julian · 08-02-2006, 09:38 AM

Really? I don't understand the languages the bible is using? I guess I must have been dreaming that I could read Koine Greek. I don't know Hebrew, though.

Why don't you read your own link and learn something? The numerical system is quite 'specificial' and if you had bothered to read it you would notice that Greek uses Digamma, qoppa and sampi, which was left out in your links once it became convenient to do so.

It is too bad that most of your post will be edited out since it is quite funny. My math is better than your English, which is not saying much, I realize.

I really can't respond further to your posts, since I really can't take you seriously, but if I can find a way to teach my cat to type I am sure that said feline can explain a few things to you. My cat is a girl, by the way...

It is also quite humorous that you, of all people, should lecture me on language given your linguistic tour-de-force seen above.

Too funny, thanks for the cheap laugh.

Julian

Alethias · 08-02-2006, 09:46 AM

I'm probably less intelligent and knowledgeable than Julian, but I'm gonna speak, nevertheless.

Gematria is a peculiarly Hebrew pursuit. It has been for 1000's of years. When done with Hebrew Scrolls, the assignment of numerical values to specific letters is non-arbitrary. Originally the Hebrew people did not have a separate number system; they used their letters as numbers, and you had to know by context whether or not a specific symbol was being used as a letter or number.

Some of the Jewish scholars, both ancient and modern, are fairly bright people, and I'm sure it didn't take long for many to notice that if you apply the numerical values to normal words that some interesting patterns develop. People do that. It's part of being human to find and note patterns. That doesn't, however, mean that the patterns themselves are in any way inherently meaningful.

Applying Hebrew Gematria values to Greek words may produce interesting patterns, but so does twirling my toe in the bath water. Neither produce anything of more value than passing amusement.

If you care, I am far from a scholar on the issue. However, I have long been fascinated with the inept attempts that some christians make to twist Gematria to meet their ends. The links you provide are nothing more than that type of meaninglessness, in my opinion.

Alethias.

Diogenes the Cynic · 08-02-2006, 09:55 AM

I can't figure what basis they're using for asigning numerical values to Greek letters. How did they decide that the 9th letter of the Greek alphabet, iota, should get a value of ten and that a sigma is 200?

The linked pages are all but incomprehensible and they're missing key components to their arguments.

Before you ask, Hero, I can read Biblical Greek and I can do simple addition.

Julian · 08-02-2006, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I can't figure what basis they're using for asigning numerical values to Greek letters. How did they decide that the 9th letter of the Greek alphabet, iota, should get a value of ten and that a sigma is 200?

The linked pages are all but incomprehensible and they're missing key components to their arguments.

Before you ask, Hero, I can read Biblical Greek and I can do simple addition.

Check out the wikipedia link above, it lists the numbers as they were used, including the three deprecated characters. It is different than using a straight numerical assignment to the alphabet which is done later in those links to ensure that the math works out. BTW, this type of foolishness is called 'Theomatics.' There has been some debunking of it but mostly it is being ignored, rightfully so.

Julian

aa5874 · 08-02-2006, 10:21 AM

Hero, there were lots of persons named Jesus 2000 years ago, so which one of them is the real Messiah? Did you find any mathematical equations to resolve that problem.

Also in Spanish speaking Countries of South America, thousands of persons are called Jesus, is there any mathematical formula to exclude them from being the Messiah or the Anti-Christ for that matter?

Toto · 08-02-2006, 11:17 AM

I can't speak for the other websites, but the point of the Jesus8880 website is that the name "Jesus" was deliberately chosen to fit the numerical-gematrial requirements.

Alethias · 08-02-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I can't figure what basis they're using for asigning numerical values to Greek letters. How did they decide that the 9th letter of the Greek alphabet, iota, should get a value of ten and that a sigma is 200?

The linked pages are all but incomprehensible and they're missing key components to their arguments.

Before you ask, Hero, I can read Biblical Greek and I can do simple addition.

If it's like the standard mishmash that I've seen, they've arbitrarily assigned values to specific letters to attempt to simulate hebrew gematria in greek letters. IOW "This greek letter equates to this hebrew letter, so we will give it the same gematrial value". In hebrew gematria, sometimes there is the curious property of some words with similar numerical vaues having similar meanings, so amongst practititioners this is used as a tool to interpret scripture. Christians take this a step further and try to find the gematrial value of greek words using a hebrew system. The resulting contortions are amazing to watch. Worse yet, of course are the people that apply hebrew gematria to english translations of the bible.

OY VEY. It makes this jewish boy feel confused and amazed.

Alethias.

08-02-2006, 08:19 AM	#1
Hero Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: HK Posts: 16	888: God reveals himself in bible through mathematics Just read the following site, and I am astonished!! http://www.fivedoves.com/tng/magic/magicthatisjesus.htm http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/ge...s-888-8880.htm http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_888.asp Even you don't believe that bible is God's words... you got to admit that the author behind is really very intelligent... to a level a genius mathematician I would say... though I know it is may be possible to invent your own words with mathematics in it, but if you want to get to the level of that of bible... you got to spend a lot of time and efforts in it... and it is quite hard to argue all those numbers are just results of randomness... you can check out the remaining articles of those sites too... very astonishing i would say... what do you guys think? anyone got good criticism on it? any other websites with opposite view on that or mathematically demostrate that the phenomenon is easily reproducible? NB: the above sites are not bible code or the alphabets games of ivan panin, which are largely regarded as invalid by both christians and atheist.... for the above sites, they are purely mathematics!!

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08-02-2006, 09:04 AM	#2
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	I doubt anyone would want to waste time refuting this kind of silliness. It is not hard to find numerical patterns, especially when you get to pick and choose what numbers to use and when and how. Notice how he uses the Greek numerals when it suits him but then switches to a straight numbering? I guess Digamma and the others just weren't convenient... Julian

08-02-2006, 09:19 AM	#3
Hero Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: HK Posts: 16	u don't even understand what languages is bible using... bible use Greeks in some scrolls, and Hebrews in other scrolls... and these ancient languages are used to represent numerical value, which are quite specificial! [English language is not!] see following links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numeral "It is not hard to find numerical patterns, especially when you get to pick and choose what numbers to use and when and how" if u really think it is so easy to find a patten similar to the links above, please show me; evidence speaks louder than words. <edit>if u don't know anything... have u read up the above sites and think? do u even understand the mathematics behind? or have u been to a school and learn basic mathematics?? <edit>

08-02-2006, 09:38 AM	#4
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	Really? I don't understand the languages the bible is using? I guess I must have been dreaming that I could read Koine Greek. I don't know Hebrew, though. Why don't you read your own link and learn something? The numerical system is quite 'specificial' and if you had bothered to read it you would notice that Greek uses Digamma, qoppa and sampi, which was left out in your links once it became convenient to do so. It is too bad that most of your post will be edited out since it is quite funny. My math is better than your English, which is not saying much, I realize. I really can't respond further to your posts, since I really can't take you seriously, but if I can find a way to teach my cat to type I am sure that said feline can explain a few things to you. My cat is a girl, by the way... It is also quite humorous that you, of all people, should lecture me on language given your linguistic tour-de-force seen above. Too funny, thanks for the cheap laugh. Julian

08-02-2006, 09:46 AM	#5
Alethias Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 7,198	I'm probably less intelligent and knowledgeable than Julian, but I'm gonna speak, nevertheless. Gematria is a peculiarly Hebrew pursuit. It has been for 1000's of years. When done with Hebrew Scrolls, the assignment of numerical values to specific letters is non-arbitrary. Originally the Hebrew people did not have a separate number system; they used their letters as numbers, and you had to know by context whether or not a specific symbol was being used as a letter or number. Some of the Jewish scholars, both ancient and modern, are fairly bright people, and I'm sure it didn't take long for many to notice that if you apply the numerical values to normal words that some interesting patterns develop. People do that. It's part of being human to find and note patterns. That doesn't, however, mean that the patterns themselves are in any way inherently meaningful. Applying Hebrew Gematria values to Greek words may produce interesting patterns, but so does twirling my toe in the bath water. Neither produce anything of more value than passing amusement. If you care, I am far from a scholar on the issue. However, I have long been fascinated with the inept attempts that some christians make to twist Gematria to meet their ends. The links you provide are nothing more than that type of meaninglessness, in my opinion. Alethias.

08-02-2006, 09:55 AM	#6
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I can't figure what basis they're using for asigning numerical values to Greek letters. How did they decide that the 9th letter of the Greek alphabet, iota, should get a value of ten and that a sigma is 200? The linked pages are all but incomprehensible and they're missing key components to their arguments. Before you ask, Hero, I can read Biblical Greek and I can do simple addition.

08-02-2006, 10:21 AM	#8
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Hero, there were lots of persons named Jesus 2000 years ago, so which one of them is the real Messiah? Did you find any mathematical equations to resolve that problem. Also in Spanish speaking Countries of South America, thousands of persons are called Jesus, is there any mathematical formula to exclude them from being the Messiah or the Anti-Christ for that matter?

08-02-2006, 11:17 AM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I can't speak for the other websites, but the point of the Jesus8880 website is that the name "Jesus" was deliberately chosen to fit the numerical-gematrial requirements.

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