Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 12-12-2009, 08:06 AM

Isn't the whole point that xianity is a sort of philosopher's stone?

It is about the airy firey demons and gods and the earthy watery humans meeting and creating a new heaven and earth.

A godhuman being sacrificed on a cross with baptism at the start - they missed out cremation at the end (maybe that is what the HolySpirit and tongues of fire is about) - probably because of the resurection motif - all makes sense as a proposed solution to earth air fire and water.

The cross adds a proof to this - look we are using the latest new fangled mathematical ideas.

I am not sure that the definition of sublunar is that relevant because xianity is a new idea - a new way to bring together earth air fire and water in a new heaven and earth, so breaking the boundaries of the sublunar realm is minor compared with the very significant rule break of a god becoming human and rising again to save us all - the whole universe groans.

Clivedurdle · 12-12-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Christian Alchemy: Christ the Stone

God Is Fire

God is the all-essential and hidden Fire in all things, especially in living things. That Fire generates all things. It has generated them, and will generate them in the future, and that which is generated is the true divine light through all eternity. God is a Fire; but no fire can burn, and no light appear within nature without the addition of air to cause the combustion, and likewise the Holy Spirit in you must act as a divine Air or breath or inspiration, coming out of the divine Fire and fanning the Fire within your soul, so that the Light will appear, for the Light must be nourished by the Fire, and this Light is love and gladness and joy within the eternal deity.

Christ: Light of God's Fire

In Christianity, this Light is Christ, having emanated from eternity through God. He who does not have this Light of consciousness within himself is in the Fire without Light and lives in darkness and hellfire. But if the Light is in a person, then is divine consciousness in him or her, and takes form in him or her. Such a person will recognize that Light as it exists in nature. All manifested things are in their interior Fire and Light, wherein is hidden the essence of the spirit. Therefore, all things are a trinity of Fire, Light, and Air. In other words, the Great Spirit, the father, is a divine super-essential Light; the Light having become manifest; the Holy Spirit is a divine super-essential Air and motion. The Fire resides within the heart and sends its rays through the whole body of man, causing it to live; but no light is born from the Fire without the presence of the spirit of holiness from which it sprang.

The Breath of God

So all things have been made by the power of the divine Word, which is the divine spirit or breath that emanated from the divine fountain in the Beginning. This breath is the universal spirit and is called the Spiritus Mundi. It was at first like Air, then contracted into a fog or nebular substance and afterwards became Water. This Water was at first all spirit and life, because it was permeated by and made alive by the spirit. It was dark in its depths, but through the outspoken Word, Light became generated therein, and then the darkness was illumined by the Light, and the soul of the world (the Anima Mundi) had its beginning. This spiritual Light, which we call Nature or the soul of the world, is a spiritual body, which by means of alchemy can be made tangible and visible. But since it exists in an invisible state, therefore is it called spirit.

Spirit of the Universe

This is a universal and living fluid diffused throughout all of Nature that pervades all beings. It is the most subtle of all substances and the most powerful on account of its inherent qualities, penetrating all bodies and causing the manifested forms in which it is active to become alive. By its action, it frees the forms of imperfections and renders the impure pure, the imperfect perfect, and causes that which is mortal to become immortal by becoming fixed therein.

The Elements of Nature

This essence or spirit has emanated front the center in the Beginning and is incorporated into the substance of which the world is formed. It is the "Salt of the Earth" and without its presence, the grass would not grow nor the fields be green; and the more this essence is condensed, concentrated, and coagulated in the manifested forms, the more enduring will they became. This substance is the most subtle of all things -- incorruptible, unchangeable in its essence, pervading the infinity of space. The sun and the planets are merely condensed states of this universal principle, and they distribute their abundance from their throbbing hearts and send them into the forms of the lower worlds and into all beings, acting through their own centers and leading the forms higher up on the read to perfection. The forms in which this living principle becomes fixed become perfect and permanent, so that they will neither rust nor decay nor be changed on being exposed to the Air; neither can such forms be dissolved by Water, nor be destroyed by Fire, nor eaten up by the matter of Earth.

This spirit ran be obtained in the same manner in which it is communicated to the earth by the stars; and this takes place by means of Water, which serves as its vehicle. It is not the Philosopher's Stone, although the latter may be prepared from it by causing that which is volatile to became fixed. "I admonish you to pay strict attention to the boiling of this Water, and not to allow your mind to be disturbed by things of minor importance. Boil it slowly, and let it putrefy until it attains the proper color, for in the Water of Life is contained the germ of wisdom. By the art of boiling, the Water will became transformed into Earth. This Earth is to be changed into a pure crystalline fluid, from which an excellent red Fire is produced. But this Water and Fire, grown together into one essence, produces the great Panacea, composed of both meekness and strength: the Lamb and the Lion united in one. The Lapis of the alchemists, the Philosopher's Stone, is the Son of God.

Quote:

Psalm 19

(The Alchemical Psalm)

1: The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2: Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3: There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4: Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5: Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6: His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7: The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8: The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9: The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10: More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11: Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12: Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13: Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14: Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

http://www.alchemylab.com/christian.htm

Toto · 12-12-2009, 12:59 PM

Not to get too far off topic, April DeConick has an intriguing blog post here on the recent Pew survey of American religious syncretism:

Quote:

. . . This report has me captivated since I feel like I am reading a report about religious belief of Christians in the second century.

The argument I have been developing about second century Christians is that they were eclectic, and that gnosticism was an amalgamation of Egyptian astrology and religion, Greek mysteries and Hermetism, middle Platonic philosophy, Judaism and Christianity, with its constituents comfortable attending more than one religious house or being part of a multiple of religious bodies. It is exactly the kind of 'hybrid' that we are seeing today, and may have been seeing since the 1800s...

I think this idea might help throw some light on Tatian, although I'm not sure which direction it will take us.

GakuseiDon · 12-12-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Not to get too far off topic, April DeConick has an intriguing blog post here on the recent Pew survey of American religious syncretism:

Quote:

. . . This report has me captivated since I feel like I am reading a report about religious belief of Christians in the second century.

The argument I have been developing about second century Christians is that they were eclectic, and that gnosticism was an amalgamation of Egyptian astrology and religion, Greek mysteries and Hermetism, middle Platonic philosophy, Judaism and Christianity, with its constituents comfortable attending more than one religious house or being part of a multiple of religious bodies. It is exactly the kind of 'hybrid' that we are seeing today, and may have been seeing since the 1800s...

Holy cow! I've thought the same for a while now. In fact, I've made similar comments on forums over the last few years. I hope she hasn't stolen that from me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I think this idea might help throw some light on Tatian, although I'm not sure which direction it will take us.

True, but I think that this should be on the other thread. I'd like to keep this one on the topic of Carrier's review.

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 03:16 AM

http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk...bbey18big.html

I know its nineteenth century, but it is a complete zodiac in a church!

And this discussion feels as if it is attempting to put demarcations on ideas that were not fixed and were based on imaginings, fugues on earth, air fire and water.

Quote:

Umberto Eco writes in Baudolino:

in the Acts of the Apostles it says that God from one man devised our humankind to inhabit the entire face of the earth, its face - not the other side, which doesn't exist.

"I don't know if you have ever studied the measurements of the Temple, well don't, because it is enough to drive you crazy. In Kings it says... In chronicles it says...

The problem however arises when you read the vision of Ezekiel. Not one measurement holds up, and so a number of pious men have admitted that Ezekiel had indeed had a vision, which is a bit like saying he had drunk too much and was seeing double. Nothing wrong with that , poor Ezekiel (he also had a right to his fun), but then Richard of St Victoire reasoned as follows: if everything, every number, every straw in the Bible has a spiritual meaning, we must clearly understand what it says literally, because it is one thing to say , for the spiritual meaning, that something is three long and another's length is nine, since these two numbers have different mystical meanings.

"The most alert commentators have not succeeded in establishing the exact structure of the Temple.

You Christians do not understand that the sacred text is born from a Voice. The Lord, haqadoch baruch hu, that the holy one, may his name always be blessed , when he speaks to his prophets, allows them to hear sounds, but does not show figures, as you people do, with your illuminated pages.

The voice surely provokes images in the heart of the prophet, but these images are not immobile; they liquefy, change shape according to the melody of that voice, and if you want to reduce to images the voice of the Lord, blessed always be his name, you freeze that voice, as if it were fresh water turning to ice that no longer quenches thirst, but numbs the limbs in the chill of death,"

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=247811

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 03:25 AM

May I strongly recommend The Queen's Conjuror: The Science and Magic of Dr.Dee (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

There was only one man to be honoured by Queen Elizabeth I with the title "my philosopher", but even this exalted title does not do justice to Dr John Dee (1527-1608), one of the Elizabethan era's most brilliant and colourful characters, whose long and eventful life is chronicled in Benjamin Woolley's biography The Queen's Conjuror: The Science and Magi c of Dr Dee.

Dee's long career as scholar, scientist, magician and political adviser spanned one of the most turbulent periods of English history, from the death of Henry VIII and England's split with Rome, to the decadent court of James I.

Working for the young, embattled Elizabeth, Dee became "an intelligencer", "a seeker of hidden knowledge, philosophical and scientific, as well as political", helping his sovereign to "become an adept at the magical practice of monarchy", as he advised on issues as diverse as foreign policy, internal security, calendrical reformation, overseas exploration, and "spiritual communication".

Woolley is particularly fascinated by Dee's immersion in magic and the occult and his claims that he could "summon the divine secrets of the universe from angels and archangels".

It was this involvement in the occult that was to ultimately lead to Dee's fall from grace. The majority of the book deals with Dee's involvement with the sinister Edward Kelley, whose crystal gazing and communications with angels were to lead Dee into virtual exile in central Europe, before his return home in 1589 "after six years, thousands of miles, some triumphs, several disasters, a few accolades and numerous humiliations".

Wooley's focus of the increasingly twisted relationship between Dee and Kelley's runs the risk of sidelining Dee's many other achievements, but his description of their magical "actions" is convincing and spooky, and captures Dee's fatal inability to resist his involvement in what he called the "strange participation" between the living and the dead.

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 03:34 AM

It is a form of bowdelerisation not to look seriously at alchemy and xianity.

This is a common fault - it has happened to Newton.

Quote:

But we misunderstand Newton if we imagine him as a paragon of rationality and public science in the modern style. Brewster also wrote, "There is no reason to suppose that Sir Isaac Newton was a believer in the doctrines of alchemy," and these words don't hold up so well. Not only was he a believer; he was, in secret, the most complete and knowledgeable alchemist of his time.

Why do we assume xianity is also the father of the enlightenment? Who called it an oriental cult?

http://www.slate.com/id/2108438/

Quote:

Isaac Newton's Gravity
How a major new exhibition gets the scientist wrong.
By James Gleick
Posted Thursday, Oct. 21, 2004, at 3:27 PM ET

Sir Isaac Newton
A curious thing happened to Isaac Newton on the way to a grand new exhibition at the New York Public Library, "The Newtonian Moment: Science and the Making of Modern Culture." He seems to have gone through a time machine—backwards.

We are repeating the same mistake with xianity.

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 03:43 AM

And as I just quoted Gleick I need to introduce Koestler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)

GakuseiDon · 12-13-2009, 04:27 AM

Hi Clive. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd like this thread to concentrate on the points in Richard Carrier's review. Thanks.

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Hi Clive. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd like this thread to concentrate on the points in Richard Carrier's review. Thanks.

http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2...re-avatar.html

And you are misunderstanding where Carrier is coming from!

This is not an enthusiasm but the critical point - your review has a 101 about this - OK, look at it seriously.

And that means gnosticism, hermeneutics, astrology, oriental cults, sun gods.

It is missing the point by attempting the rational demarcation of this subject. Look seriously at the idea of the holon.

12-12-2009, 08:06 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Christianity and Alchemy split from Riachard Carrier's review of Doherty Isn't the whole point that xianity is a sort of philosopher's stone? It is about the airy firey demons and gods and the earthy watery humans meeting and creating a new heaven and earth. A godhuman being sacrificed on a cross with baptism at the start - they missed out cremation at the end (maybe that is what the HolySpirit and tongues of fire is about) - probably because of the resurection motif - all makes sense as a proposed solution to earth air fire and water. The cross adds a proof to this - look we are using the latest new fangled mathematical ideas. I am not sure that the definition of sublunar is that relevant because xianity is a new idea - a new way to bring together earth air fire and water in a new heaven and earth, so breaking the boundaries of the sublunar realm is minor compared with the very significant rule break of a god becoming human and rising again to save us all - the whole universe groans.

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12-13-2009, 03:43 AM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And as I just quoted Gleick I need to introduce Koestler. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)

12-13-2009, 04:27 AM	#9
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Hi Clive. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd like this thread to concentrate on the points in Richard Carrier's review. Thanks.

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