pharoah

Do you really believe that Paul wrote Hebrews? To the best of my knowledge, no mainstream scholar and not many conservative scholars outside of the KJV camp adhere to that belief.

Mr. Logic

You seem to have some hard bark on you Joan. <s>
I am not a defender of "Christianity" or "The Bible", but a defender of the logic of Scritpure. I do understand why this may seem odd, at first.
Anyway, Juda's is the Prototype for False Believers. They only follow in a physical sense. Spiritually Judas never was on board.
Few "Religionists" understand this (go figure <s>) but an Apostate is not someone that use to believed but defected. Judas is the example. Read John6 and see that Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING who didn't believe him and who would betray him.
Look at the diff. btw Peter and Judas. One was caught up in fear, and the other one cold heartedly turned on the most innocent of Men, for some cash. Big Diff there.
If you can show me where Judas betrayed Christ because he knew that millions would gain eternal life, show me! Intent is everything. The laws in all countries know this, Joan. For the record there is a prophesy in the O.T. concerning the tribe of Dan, and Judas fullfilled that prophesy! All of the 12 Disciples represented each of the 12 Tribes.
This is something that I discovered on my own and had confirmed later.

I am not saying that Abe was perfect, but you were not in his position where you? This is like People who complain that Jefferson had Slaves.
Someone else whould have had them and treated them badly, so what is the point, we don't live in those times now! Please be less critical and more open to admit that there are somethings that you might not know! Agreed?
Thanks

judge

Excellent observations!!!! :notworthy:

Mr. Logic

Hi Yummy! I think that you are making my case for me, and don't realize it.

>>>Actually my main point was that "Paul" does use the word probably once, so saying he doesn't use it is incorrect. Especially since this usage is the main variant and used in many translations.

How does the word "Probably" fit with "incorrect"? The best that you can give is a "problably incorrect", but you state that I AM incorrect! If we are going to get down to brass tacks, then if I have a prob. with not being pin point accurate then we have something is common. Can we agree on that?

I use the FACT that Strong's concordance doesn't show the word Hell being used by Paul as an opener to then go on to show that Paul did not preach extortion. Why would anyone take a verse that shows that Paul might have mentioned hell to build a whole excuse for preaching Extortion in place of the Gospel? Not talking about you here, but Tradtions of men, that changed the message. The Good News message can't be "Your going to be punished for eternity if you don't do this"! Impossible!
The same People often preach "Greace by faith" and then oddly add "but the law is there too"! It is? Not according to the man who down played punishment for rejection.
The scriptures that you give talk about variations of punishment, and Jesus said that Juda's punishment (False Follower and Leader) would be worse than Pilots! Don't all rejectors get the same punishment, Eternal Life in Hell?
Not according to Jesus or the evidence that you just provided.

The question is "Do you understand that what we do, doesn't save us"?
The words "Dog and Pony show" come into mind. A Good Tree doesn't have to struggle to produce good fruit, it's a given.
Change the inward and the outward will follow.
About this time the Religionists start quoting James the head of the Judaizers to prove that I am wrong. <s>

Do I admit that at times, Paul focus on our works? Yep, but he also water baptized People, and later realized that that baptism was a Jewish Thang, and saw that it caused divisions, and admitted that Jesus didn't send him to do it. 1 Cor. 1:17 Take all of what is said in that chapter and know that NO ONE was told to water bapt. after Pentecost.
Paul relied on his flesh at times. No one is filled with the Spirit 24/7/365

Paul's message of Grace by faith isn't his! Men do not think that way. He was teaching God's psychology 2,000 years before it became a science!
Hope that this helps someone!

Joan of Bark

Then you have your work cut out for you.

I did not make that statement. I did, however, claim that Christians should be thankful to Judas, when I should have written that they should be thankful for the fact that Judas betrayed him. Excuse me for my sloppy language.

Oh, really? Says who? If a 'pro-lifer' murders a doctor performing abortions, he or she should not be prosecuted because their intent was to save the lives of innocent fetuses? Or if a Hindu kills his child because he saw of vision of Kali ordering to commit such an act, his actions should be accepted and forgiven because his intent was to satisfy a bloodthirsty god? Or if a man robs a bank to get money to give to starving children in Africa, he should not be charged because of his intent? Which laws are you referring to here? Or if Hitler tries to exterminate the Jews because he thinks they are a threat to the proper ordering of the world, then he should not be condemned? (Whereas King David, who had a soldier killed in order to protect David's adultery with the soldier's wife, is a man of God because his intent was pure?)

Yet you and other Christians feel free to judge Judas ... By your logic, we can never judge anyone in history. Are you saying that? If you are, you may actually be correct, but I want the point clarified, especially since you feel you should judge Judas.

As for the wonderful Abraham, he didn't even try to appeal to the pharoah's better nature. He just assumed the worst, then put his own self-interest ahead of his wife's fidelity.

Some things I don't know????? Impossible !!!

Sarcasm aside, when, in over 900 posts on this board, have I ever made or implied this statement? I am, however, a history major, and I am well aware of the dangers of applying 21st century logic to the past.

By the way, why do you feel the need to put everything in blue ink? It's bloody annoying and hard on the eyes.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

I looked it up and you are right Mr. Logic! Paul doesn't really mention any such place as hell. I figured it out for you though


You see Mr. Logic the Bible wasn't around when Paul was alive, so he could not have read about hell!

As far as I can recall he never even references Matthew, Mark or Luke which might have been at least some what jotted down by then. Those Gospels mention hell numerous times and by Jesus His-self [H.] Christ!

John never comes right out and mentions hell, but then you know how he hid all sorts of cryptic, subliminal messages and symbolic meanings in his writing, so it might have went unnoticed by Paul, if in fact he even read John, which I doubt was written all down then.

Acts mentions hell, briefly, but before Paul shows up. Paul is mistaken for Mercury [Acts 14:12]. Personally I think they were referring to Mercury's traits and comparing Paul's traits as the same

Paul was also convinced about the Second Coming being just around the corner, so hell to him was irrelevant. And like it's been mentioned, to certain people, hell was death or the garbage dump back then, so threating people with that might have been useless and could be consider a threat!

Next we get to James and 2 Peter, I can't say whether Paul read those, he might have been dead [hell] by then or in prison [hell for sure!] , I forget, but they are in the least lead ins to Revelations, and I'm sure you know what happens there...

Revelation 20:

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [and the second hell]


15And whosoever was not found written [the bad people:wave:] in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. [and the second hell]


Revelation 21:

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,[the bad people :wave:] shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. [and the second hell]



I don't want you to think I'm picking on you or trying to be mean Mr. Logic, but... you should learn to use: before posting. A lot of the people here, at IIDB, have some serious college educations and credentials and look at spelling mistakes as kind of ignorant or lazy.

Just look at the title of your thread "Your going to hell". Now that would work like this:

Good News. Your you're going to hell theory??? Bullocks!!!

Just a suggestion . Be careful you don't accidentally edit someone's name, though, unless you wanna get a rise out of them . You can always claim it was an accident. :huh: :wave:

Mr. Logic

Hi RW, I think that you are making a lot of sense here. I am just stating that the Hell and damnation thing is obviously overblown by Religionists. It started that way from the RCC, when they were a totalitarian system.
If they cracked the whip, then you had better make the trip <s>

It is important to know where some of this overboard views come from. Did you know that the 3 name chant water baptism came from the 2nd century Paganization of Christianity? They distorted the Great Commission interp. to change it to a ritual with water. They did this by changing the meaning of the word baptism (narrowed it down), just like they did for the word Church, and Saint and many other words. BTW, I have proven this to a Greek Scholar, and a Pastor of one of the largest churches in Mich. who both, btw, came out swinging to defend their traditions on this. They were honest men and had to admit the truth about this. You see Scripture can't be wrong. There are no works for salvation. Works are done afterward. Jesus wouldn't cause all this confusion over infant baptism, etc. and all the rest by commanding something without giving us a reason why.

Man had 2,000 years to change the truth and divide up into thousands of sects, and denominations, and that is just what he did.
Yet the truth is still there for anyone who wants it.

As far as the punishment for rejection of Jesus goes. It is more complicated than that. Paul claimed that there were some using the name of Jesus that followed a different Jesus (Gal.1) How do we know that we are following the real Jesus and why do few Preachers care if you are? Shouldn't they warn People that there is a different Jesus, perhaps thousands of false ones?
Not just False Christ's but False Jesus'. IOW, a False representation of who he is.

Most seem to miss that Jesus said "I AM the Truth"! If truth came into this World in the form a Man would they hail him or nail him?
Both the World and the Religionists that knew of the true God, rejected Jesus!
They rejected Truth, not just a Man.

I sadly say that I think that a lot of Religionists HOPE that there is eternal punishment in hell for those who don't believe what they believe. That is what is so scary! I have seen quite a few debates on hell on forums over the last 10 years and I have never seen one in which the proponents of hell, hung in there. They didn't stay around long. They couldn't (sorry for the expression) take the heat! <s>

Jesus said "forgive them for what they do"! Doesn't that say a lot? some obviously did know what they were doing, but Jesus wasn't talking about them.
It is one thing to be duped into believing something and quite another to know full on that you are doing evil. Those that love evil and lies will indeed reap what they sow in whatever manner, but everyone who rejects Jesus isn't going to automatically go to hell for eternity. What Jesus did they reject? The Mormon Jesus, or the J.W. Jesus, or the Baptist Jesus? Can you see my point?

When People allow themselves to be branded/labeled like cattle, they are not following Christ and wherever he goes. Follows of Christ don't say "Well I'm a Baptist so I believe so and so! Yet I don't think that all Baptists are going to hell for eternity.
BTW, Nicodemus stated that "We know that you are a Prophet from God"! That let the cat out of the bag on the Leaders of that day. They KNEW that Jesus was a least a Prophet from God, so many of them KNEW what they were doing, even though most were prob. duped by the main Leaders. That is how deception usually works.
If there is eternal punishment that it will be in the lake of fire, and will be for the Devil and his Angels. Many of them who have claimed to be Followers of Christ, such as Men like Calvin who burned a doctor alive at the stake for not believing in his and the Catholic view of the trinity! What Follower of the true Christ would burn someone alive?
Hope that this helps! Blessings to you RW

Mr. Logic

>>Joan of Bark:
Then you have your work cut out for you.<<

Tell me about it! I've been doing it for 20 years, and it has only gotten a little easier. Fighting ignorance that has existed since the 2nd century isn't an easy task.

You did say that Christians should be THANKFUL TO judas. I am Thankful to God that he worked Judas' evil for good. Judas' betrayl of Christ was prophesied in Gen. 49:17 for Judas represented the tribe of Dan.
I found a whole trail of verses from the old and new testament that prove this. Few Christians, and I mean FEW know that wrtings to the Church are found AFTER the gospels. They simply set the stage for the most part, to show the huge change from law to grace. Most Christians are under law, Why? The RCC bases their beliefs on "James" who was a teacher of the law. They have no use for what Paul taught on grace.
It's all relitive, and connected, so I don't know how to explain this without pointing these things out. Sorry if that seems a bit deep.

As far as Abortion goes! Everyone who believes in is obviously not in a womb! I, Me, Mine! It's just more of the same old selfism!
To call this Equality proves it, since 1. The Father of the baby has no say in abortion. 2. If SHE decideds to keep the child he has no right to refuse to pay for 18 years. Abortion means the right to dis responsibility! Yet almost everyone seems to understand that a man has a responsibility to support the child? Hummm!! Don't think that we aren't brainwashed in our society of I, Me, Mine, and blame the other guy for everything?
You prob. won't like my answers but they are logic

Mr. Logic

Yep, you sure do sound like an Atheist alright! One of those, "There are no absoultes, but there is absolutley no God" types, alright!
Yes, I can see that my problem is that I haven't TRUSTED YOU as you said.
I am an ex Agnostic, and I know the logic of scritpure, and the diff. btw Paul and those who treaten with hell. You say that Hell is used to gain Converts, which is true, and yet you lump Paul in with them who doesn't. You never say why he wouldn't! Sorry, you sound like someone with a very closed mind, and arguementative nature! Your posts shows a very biased view!

Mr. Logic

Thanks Judge! Did you catch the Guy claiming that we should trust him, and know that Paul didn't preach hell to gain converts, but then turn around and say that most preach hell for the opposite reason?
The 3 name dip and chant was also used to gain converts. It is from the Second century and seems to have started with Justin Martyr.
Encyclopedia Britanica, and many ref. books point this out, and Simon and Shuster not only concured with my research when I read them on it, but flat out stated to my shock that "Justin Martyr, paganized the Christian religion"!
Blessings