Toto

I have no special insight into what the ancient Hebrews thought. I am just wondering why you feel the need to find some literalistic interpretation of this passage when you claim not to be an inerrantist.

It appears to me that either there is a simple error in the Bible or that "walk on all fours" is a phrase that means walking on the ground (as opposed to flying) and is not meant to be a literal count of appendages. Trying to claim that two of those legs are not really legs is the sort of convoluted reinterpretation of words that inerrantists resort to.

GakuseiDon

Correct. I'm not, and as much as I love the Bible as a cultural artifact, I have never regarded it as inerrant or the 'Word of God'. I wish it was simply a plain error, as it might help fundamentalist Christians move past that notion.

I don't know what you mean by "not really legs". It's perfectly clear: four legs for walking, and two legs (though the number isn't stated in the Bible) for jumping.

Have a look at the diagram I gave earlier. Note that the diagram comes from a children's education website that has nothing to do with fundamentalist religion AFAICS.

If I used the diagram and described the grasshopper as having "four walking legs" and "two long jumping legs", you wouldn't bat an eyelid. You wouldn't jump up and down and say, "Hey! That's wrong! The grasshopper has six legs!"

Here is the Bible passage again:

"There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground."

Which are the legs that are "jointed legs for hopping"? The back two, right?

Which are legs that are used to "walk on all fours"? The front four, correct?

What does the diagram show? "Two long jumping legs" and "Four walking legs". IOW, it is saying exactly the same thing as the Bible.

Toto, is that diagram wrong in the way it describes a grasshopper?

JaronK

Actually, IIRC Grasshoppers walk on all 6 legs. The "walking legs" are legs used only for walking, while the "jumping legs" are used for both walking and providing the primary thrust for jumping. In other words, they still have 6 legs and walk on all 6 legs... it's just that two of those legs are also really good jumping legs.

So no, grasshoppers do not "walk on all fours." They walk on all sixes. That verse is just as inaccurate as the pi = 3 part.

JaronK

Toto

Not clear at all. the legs used for jumping are apparently also used for walking. They are all legs in any case. There are 6 legs, not 4.

It is a website that allows users to post material. Did a scientist label the front legs walking or a home schooling parent? Do you know?

The back two legs are used for jumping and walking. The front legs are used for walking and holding prey. There are six legs used for walking.

Unless you tried to say that the grasshopper had a total of 4 legs, or only walks on 4 legs.

Except that they are all jointed, and all touch the ground, and all are used for walking. The grasshopper walks on six feet, not on four feet.

A cat has four legs and uses the back two for jumping; it walks on all four legs, not on the front two.

I think that it does not support your argument.

How Grasshoppers Work

Enough of this issue. The Bible is inexact at best. You have said this doesn't make any difference to your religious beliefs. Why are you putting this strange interpretation on the clear language to try to save inerrancy?

GakuseiDon

I guess that it is the "walk on all fours" part that throws people, since it sounds like grasshoppers have only four legs. Yet the Bible clearly talks about "walking" legs and "jumping" legs. Unless you think the "jumping" legs overlap with the "walking" legs, then they can't be part of the four.

Yes, they do use all six legs when they move slowly. But have you ever seen a grasshopper or cockroach move quickly? The back legs are barely used. They get tucked up and are only used for balance. They scurry on their front four legs.

Oh dear, not this again. You know, pi DOES equal 3, it just doesn't equal 3.0. As with all irrational numbers, it's a question of arithmetic precision (the number of decimal places).

Pi = 3.142. It doesn't equal 3.1420
Pi = 3.14. It doesn't equal 3.140
Pi = 3.1. It doesn't equal 3.10
Pi = 3. It doesn't equal 3.0

JaronK

The point is, the bible is inaccurate, and "3" is such an imprecise measurement that there's no way you could construct a building if you bought your materials according to that measurement. At 3.1416, you could actually construct something accurately. But the bible doesn't say "slightly more than 3" which would be accurate... it says 3. Stop pretending scientific notation existed back then.

So yes, the bible is wrong when it says pi equals 3... it should have said slightly more than 3, since that's rather critical to the usage of the number. And it is wrong when it says grasshoppers walk on all fours... they might scurry on all fours, but they walk on all sixes.

JaronK

Kharakov

Actually, orthodox Judaic grasshoppers only walk upon the 4 small legs, holding the other 2 above the ground until they use them to jump.

However, there is a small sect of Samaritan grasshoppers which hold their middle legs above the ground, and walk on their front and rear pair of legs. They have slightly better jump length than the orthodox grasshoppers due to increased usage of their rear legs.

These various religious groups do not reflect the behavior of Gentile grasshoppers, which you may be more familiar with (and apparently the article you linked to describes Gentile grasshopper behavior). Gentile grasshoppers (the largest group, of course) use all 6 legs while walking. This is allegedly forgiven by the sacrifice of the Great Hopper's son, although practicing orthodox Judaic grasshoppers know better.

GakuseiDon

Because I believe my interpretation is the correct one, and is in fact the plain reading: four walking legs and two jumping legs.

Kharakov

Did they (Judaic scholars) have decimal approximations back then?

GakuseiDon

Here's an orthodox Judaic locust (actually one from a locust plague in Palestine in 1915):