mountainman

Eusebius introduces Justin in his "Church History". Justin is associated with really stupid forgeries. Let's leave Justin where he belongs.


Athenagoras is another 3rd century Platonist identity who appeared to have converted to Christianity. Athenogaras must join other 3rd century Platonists such as Ammonius the Platonist, Origen the Platonist, Anatolius the Platonist and even Porphyry the Platonist. These 4 platonists have christian counterparts in the 3rd century: Ammonias the Christian (who designed the Eusebian Canon Tables), Origen the Christian (who was later charged with heresy in the 4th century), Anatolius the Chistian Bishop of Laodicea who retells the utterly bullshit fable of the 3rd century BCE Ptolemaic origin of the LXX, and Porphyry the Christian - a forgery under the name of Porphyry from the 4th century.

The WIKI page on Atheagoras states:
There are massive known forgeries in the early 4th century. Justin and Atheagoras are propagandic profiles. Also see Ephrem Syria and Hegemonius against the Manichaeans.



This statement is misleading. Philo does not mention the Four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles or the Pauline writings, or Jesus, but according to a number of scholarly assessments has been "Christianised". i.e. manipulated. Josephus does not mention the Four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles or the Pauline writings. Josephus was manipulated.



There are sources that do not match the canon which are also bogus.

aa5874

You must be prepared to identify the "stupid forgeries" of Justin. I won't allow to make unsubstantiated claims about Justin Martyr.

Please name the book and the chapter in Church History or the source of antiquity that show Justin Martyr's writing are stupid forgeries.

This is BC&H. Let us deal with evidence.


I was referring to Apologetic Sources that used gMark, gMatthew, gLuke, gJohn, the Pauline letters, Acts of the Apostles, like writings attributed to Ignatius, Clement of Rome , Tertullian, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Hegesippus, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Jerome, and others.

It is the simplest and most effective way to identify forgeries and manipulation of Apologetic sources.

Now, can you identify what has been Christianized in the writings of Philo??

The writings of Philo do NOT support Christianity based on what I have read so far of Philo.

Philo was a supposed contemporary of all the main characters of the NT, Jesus, the Apostles and Paul but did NOT mention any of them ONLY Pilate and Tiberius.

The writings of Philo are evidence against any Jesus cult and Paul up to c 50 CE or whenever Philo wrote in the 1st century.

I never did claim that ONLY sources which match the Canon are bogus.

mountainman

The following from

This profile is supposed to have written apologies to Roman Emperors, and then forged letters of reply from the same emperors. These forgeries may be presented in Book 4 of HE.


In the following the word FALSE was edited to read MISLEADING.

What you say is not false, but its only part of the picture.



Yes, I understand this. Thanks.



Google christianization of philo.

The details and the scholars escape me for the present moment. There may have been an old thread about this somewhere. The gist of the argument is that - even though Philo does not mention anything Christian, his texts were preserved by the christians, and that there is evidence they they tampered with his texts. You might like to discuss this in a separate thread. Someone else may be able to cite a relevant article ...

aa5874

You have NOT shown that Justin carried out any 'stupid forgeries'. You seem to be giving an opnion but there is really no evidence.

You must understand that I actually read the writings attributed to Justin Martyr and Athenagoras and it is rather easy to identify apologetic sources that that have been manipulated.

You seem to think that every apologetic source have been manipulated but that is NOT the case at all based on my research.

Again, simply because the writings were in the hands of Christians does NOT mean they were manipulated. "Against the Galilleans" was in the hands of Christians and we have information that contradict the History of the Church.

It is extremely important we read sources first to find out whether or not they were manipulated.

We know EXACTLY what the Roman Church and apologetic sources wanted to do. They wanted to claim that the Four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters were all written since the 1st century and even before c 70 CE.

It is not logical that Justin Martyr would write books that show the Jesus movement was NOT well-established up to the mid 2nd century but was manipulated.

mountainman

The following letter, purportedly written by the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius is found appended to the end of the First Apology.

aa5874

How are you going to show it was done by Justin Martyr?? This is like claiming that Wars of the Jews, Life of Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, and Antiquities of the Jews are all historically bogus because passages in Antiquities 18.3.3 and 20.9.1 were identified as forgeries.

The writings called First Apology and Dialogue with Trypho attributed to Justin Martyr Contradict the History of the Church as stated by Eusebius and PRESENT a 120 year BLACK HOLE for the post-ascension Jesus movement so it is NOT logical that they were produced by 4th century interpolators who wanted to give the false impression that there were four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings since the 1st century and before c 70 CE.

Duvduv

I suppose it's conceivable that at a time before a central authority linked the epistles doctrinally with Christianity that "Justin" could have ignred them as contributing nothing to the historical Jesus that the author Justin believed in.
But to accept that the Apology was written to an Emperor in the second century when the apparent number of "Christians" would have been so low with the expectation it would be read makes no sense. Especially since there is no evidence that the Emperor ever received such a letter. And of course it just happened to survive for posterity when not even a shred of Marcion survived anywhere.

GakuseiDon

I imagine the letters were kept because they were useful, regardless of whether they went to the Emperor or not. Even then, we only have them by chance. We don't have any of Papias' five volume work of the sayings of Jesus, except in a handful of quotes, despite his work being one of the earliest ones, and ones he collected from those who knew the apostles. Imagine if that were found! And the only reason we have Justin Martyr's work was because a Byzantine scribe copied out some of Justin's letters in the 14th Century CE. Otherwise we would have little more than a scattering of quotations today. Imagine the chunk of the understanding we have of early Christianity that would have been lost if that Byzantine scribe hadn't copied Justin's letters?

I think there was a natural selection at work, where those books that presented a non-proto-orthodox view of Christ and Christianity were simply not transmitted through the ages, leaving us with the works we have today.

Duvduv

Do any other ancient writers quote Justin? And who was the 14th scribe and how is it no one other than him knew anything about Justin?

aa5874

Justin did NOT claim that there were was a small number of Christians.

It was the COMPLETE OPPOSITE.

ALL WERE CALLED CHRISTIANS--even Magicians like Simon Magus and Menander since the time of Claudius the Emperor.

First Apology 7 Again, Justin MADE it clear that there were people called Christians who did NOT believe the Jesus story since BEFORE NERO.

It is EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY important to understand that Justin Martyr has THROWN a MONKEY WRENCH in the argument that Christians ONLY refer to people who Believe the Jesus story.

ALL WERE CALLED CHRISTIANS based on Justin regardless of Belief.

So when it is claimed Nero persecuted Christians it CANNOT be assumed that those Christians BELIEVED a Jesus story, they could believe some other story or a magician.

It is NOT expected a 4th century apologetic source would THROW Monkey wrenches at the History of the Church.

The writings of Justin Martyr REVEAL a 120 year BLACK HOLE for the Church.